MaximumCuddles
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User ID: 58
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
In terms of severity, it’s somewhere in the ballpark of simultaneously being lobotomized and becoming a jihadist.
It’s not just the potential sterilization & being unable to achieve an orgasm for life, it’s also being a lifelong patient, and thusly a financial supporter, for “big pharma”, an industrial complex that is very politically powerful and I find have proven themselves to be extremely dangerous.
They are also often a supporter for a memeplex that is fundamentally hateful towards what I and many others would consider to be healthy, normal behavior and social dynamics.
So not only is a transitioned person deeply alienated towards their own physical body, they are often radicalized against their friends and neighbors who knew them beforehand.
I had a close friend who transitioned during university, in the early 2000s before trans issues became more mainstream. We are both of an age & class where we were some of the earliest people to be “extremely online”. I spent a lot of time lurking in trans friendly spaces, and honestly the right-wing outrage machine might be even underselling how intensely hateful the rhetoric is in those places towards their “enemies”, real or perceived.
At the time I was a supporter but I felt myself being so turned off by the whole “trans communist” schtick that I unconsciously distanced myself from them and I’m likely to never speak to this person again. At the time I didn’t think much of it but with the benefit of hindsight a lot of things sort of fell into place for me.
I have children in public school in a mega blue area, so I have real skin in the game. I can confirm even in elementary school they are already being exposed to this stuff, if I wasn’t so poor I’d put them in private school.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
Early and often, that’s the real solution.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
I do find it darkly hilarious that the supposed most positive outcome of transition is a total social death that leads to a phoenix like social rebirth, but with like, makeup and shit.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
You know, I consider myself to be a person with a very strong stomach. I very rarely feel disgust on a visceral level, even when dealing with excrement or wounds.
But I was listening to a podcast and at one point they were discussing uterus transplants in india for western trans tourists, trans women obviously.
The idea of grafting a uterus, taken from a “willing” 3rd world natal female, onto a natal man who is an autogynephile so they could feel like a “real woman” filled me with a level of disgust I have never encountered in my entire life. No lie, I had to turn the program off, pull over on the highway and just breathe for a minute.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
I’m also quite baffled at the assumption that the burden of proof is on omnivores to defend their diet.
It’s honestly incredibly arrogant. there’s so much stacked against it I think it takes a very fanatical type of person to have that level of hubris.
I mean, just off the top of my head:
1.) Humans are omnivores. That’s how our bodies and brains evolved, and that’s the type of diet that interfaces most completely with us.
2.) Not everyone is a utilitarian, in fact I’d be amazed if even 10% of the population subscribe to beliefs that can be considered fully utilitarian. Outside of that belief system, suffering is often complicated to define and also is often considered morally neutral without greater context.
3.) Even if you are a utilitarian, the state of Nature most animals, including ancestral humans, existed in is incredibly rough and brutal and full of pain and suffering. It’s not a given that domesticated animals, even ones with very sad & short lives, would be better off without human intervention. Or that ending animal domestication will lower total suffering in the world. It’s not even close to a given. There’s a sanitized “Disney channel” version of animals’ lives that I feel that animal lovers sort of unconsciously project on a low level, but the truth is staggeringly cruel.
I could go on and on for hours about this. This is one of the few subjects I’ll likely never budge an inch on, I fully understand the other side of this issue and particularly the instinct not cause unneeded pain and suffering.
But whenever I hear hardcore vegans, which is to say any vegan at all, talk about this all I can think is “This ain’t it, chief”.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
How is it reverent? It’s literally the baseline for consideration of wether or not animal welfare is important or not in the first place.
Because the question isn’t “will animals suffer?”, that’s a total given. Animals rip each other to shreds, stalk each other in the middle of night, devour the sick and helpless, gorge on each others entrails while they are still alive, and on and on and on forever and ever.
Inhumane conditions? The whole goddamn universe is an unending inhumane condition for them.
So the question isn’t “how much will animals suffer” it’s “what type of suffering will animals be subjected to” and “to what end?”.
That’s where you all lose the plot. Even if you were totally right on animals being worthy of moral consideration on the level of humans, you would additionally have to prove that domesticated animals would be better off not existing at all, and that by ending animal domestication you have managed to somehow lower the amount of animal suffering occurring in the world, while simultaneously outweighing the positive utility animal consumption has for humanity.
Which is from where I’m sitting is an utterly ludicrous claim.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
It’s amazing how similar this is to arguing with an Anarchist. Which to me is also a sort of crypto-religious belief wrapped in a rationalist skin suit.
Wild animal suffering is relevant because when you say animal domestication is morally wrong, the obvious next question is “compared to what?”. Good and bad must be weighed against each other to make some semblance of moral judgement, especially in the realm of the political. And veganism insofar as it is related to animal welfare and liberation is certainly political.
So the obvious comparison is the lives of wild animals, because the end of animal domestication means the subject of moral questioning is overwhelming subjected to that mode of living, which is basically the IRL version of lovecraftian horror.
This also highlights the absurdity of your thought exercise, because we can clearly point to a possible world for humans better than being skinned alive for meat. It’s the one we live in right now. Not only is it possible but it’s currently existent. No such comparisons exist for animals. So the whole moral weight of this line of reasoning collapses.
As for the question as to wether a short and sad life is worth it, that remains an open question.
Certainly Life seems to think so, seeing how abundant those types of lives are in nature, red in tooth and claw.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
I agree, I feel like you are being quite obtuse. But that’s how these conversations generally go.
The problem with your little analogy is that for the animals, the torture planet was already here. It was here before us and it will be here after us. We didn’t build it. It doesn’t need us to exist. We simply carved out a little portion of it for our own purposes. The only proper way to judge that carve out is by comparing it to the rest.
The is/ought thing is telling, humans can talk about is/ought distinctions because they exist for us, we can decide amongst ourselves to live differently than the state of nature, within some limits. We have options.
For animals there is no “ought”, only “is”. That’s why they are animals. There is only the existence they are born into or no existence at all, which is hinted at even by your own admission and desire, The “final solution” for domesticated animals.
I think our little dialogue has demonstrated that Veganism is part of a whole constellation of beliefs that take an aspect of our existence where there is suffering, radically decontextualizes it, and then compares it to itself.
Anarchism, Pacifism, anti-nuclear activism, deep ecology, they all seem to have this in common and they are all, from my perspective, equally tedious to interact with as they have an almost religious-like aversion to dealing with the plain tragic reality of life.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
My fundamental allergy to veganism is its quasi religious nature.
I’m a materialist atheist, a universal Darwinist, a naturalist. I also used to be quite religious, so I find none of these arguments compelling and instantly hear them echoed in tenor by old apologist screeds that were often cloaked in appropriated scientific language that veers wildly from data dumping to naked moralizing.
I feel the same about anarchism, pacifism, deep ecology. They all seem part of the same coalition of beliefs that radically decontextualizes some sordid or sad aspect of existence and then when it is isolated, attempts to argue that it can be erased. I remain unconvinced.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
I’d be lying if I didn’t say I licked my canines and incisors a few times reflexively while scrolling through the thread.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
I’m 6’1 and last time I got my body weight analyzed literally my muscles, bone, skin and viscera weigh more than 150lbs. If I weighed 150lbs I would not only have literally zero body fat but I would have lost muscle and bone mass. I was 225lbs with 45lbs of body fat.
I am a very strong dude, but I’m not exactly a high level strength athlete. Apparently, All it takes is a lifetime of on again off again strength training, an active lifestyle, and a series of physically demanding jobs to have a body composition where 150lbs is an absurdly low body weight. Plus being six feet tall.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
Deeper in the thread I was arguing with a guy who literally just said these animals should… cease to exist? I guess? So the take is a real one.
I’m a little fuzzy on the mechanics, but a “final solution” for farm animals from a vegan perspective is honestly a bit hilarious.
MaximumCuddles
1yr ago
… the specific what?
MaximumCuddles
11mo ago
Absolutely true.
I also feel similar to the OP. The difference is that I’m a large, very muscular and physically dominant male. I’m an amateur boxer & powerlifter and have been in a few situations where I’ve had to use the skills I’ve developed in adverse conditions.
I’ve lived and worked principally in two cities in my life. Both very blue. One very wealthy and safe but with the growing problems that are discussed here frequently. We will call it city A. Other city much less wealthy, much rougher and with a longer history of violence. Let’s call that city B. Both cities are relatively close tk each other.
Over the last ten years the homeless in city A have gotten increasingly violent, brazen and deranged. They started setting up camps in broad daylight, in the middle of public streets. often the most violently mentally will walk the streets at day and terrify people.
The homeless in city b, while numerous, are largely the same as they’ve even been. They mostly keep to themselves, sometimes annoy tourists, but they are rarely threatening.
While city B has a reputation for violence, I feel much more comfortable there. I once expressed this to a group of people from city A, who were a bit shocked and amused. They asked me why. I told them their homeless are crazy, aggressive and out of control. They asked me why I thought that. I paused for a moment, and said ”If homeless people act like in city B, I think people just beat the shit out of them.”.
I myself had an illustrative example of this personally. Late at night in city A, where I was working, a homeless man locked eyes with me and then took a shit right in front of me.
After the momentary disgust wore off, the rage at this blatant antisocial act set in. I look up, see a security camera staring right at me, looked back at the homeless man, gave him a death stare, and moved on.
I think there are a lot of people feeling like Bernie Goetz out there, but with our growing panopticon and our fully deranged racial politics, that juice is just not worth the squeeze.
MaximumCuddles
11mo ago
Yeah, me and my family are non-white so I have a pretty direct material interest in opposing the advances of white nationalism.
But this is like the “predator bro handshake meme” if I’ve ever seen one in real life. All the people I know who are most hardline about this type of stuff are Latino, Asian & African immigrants. Which really shouldn’t surprise anyone, seeing as they are the ones actually suffering the consequences of the urban decay brought on by violent, mentally ill homeless.
Might be old hat at this point Starting Strength is a classic for a reason.
It’s very practical. Took me from an utter rookie to being able to do 500lb deadlifts regularly in about 2.5 years.
Between that, learning Muay Thai, regularly practicing meditation, and a handful of genetic gifts, I don’t think it’s even a slight exaggeration to say I’m probably physically capable of defending myself against 99.9% of people I’ve ever met or will meet.
As a sort of aside, I saved a passage from the old place onto my notes without saving the author.
Although to me it’s highly exaggerated and extraordinarily blunt, it still really encapsulates the core of how I feel about this. It’s obviously a response so some context is missing but if anyone knows the author or can provide this missing context that would be cool.
From Dec 2020
“But utilitarian with regard to whom? The whole problem with utilitarianism is the presence of so-called "utility monsters", and homelessness presents a real world example. A small minority of the population wants to use drugs and shit in the street while slowly dying of medieval diseases. But every tiny bit of aid just pleases them so so much that utility calculus DEMANDS we all pay an 80% marginal tax rate to pay incompetent government contractors to build $500k hovels for these people.
Utilitarianism falls flat because each person's measure of utility is internal to their mind and not comparable to anyone else's. It's a moral system that privileges incompetent, clueless and greedy people at the expense of unassuming, conscientious people.
If it were up to me, I'd make it publicly known that the cops aren't going to lift a finger to aid anyone who hasn't paid at least $300 into the treasury this year. So the grocery stores and homeowners could just bayonet them (no reason to waste the ¢45 and noise of a bullet) and the disruptive homeless would retreat to rural areas and OD in the woods where we don't have to pay to bury them. The down on their luck homeless would stay in a shelter for a while and get back on their feet, and the town could maybe not be filled with human shit for ten minutes.
But notice how this policy isn't based on retribution. I don't hate the people being discussed here. I feel vaguely sorry for and disgusted by them. I am just aware that helping them ranges from expensive to impossible and I like holding on to my money without losing it all to taxes. Every dollar the county housing boondoggle gets is a dollar my children won't get, so bayonets it is. If the chronically homeless could somehow be profitably remediated, they would be my best friends.”
MaximumCuddles
11mo ago
I’d argue that Q2 is actually much more important part of the “bullshit jobs” problem, as many of those people are people with high status and so are the jobs even though they are fundamentally useless or even negative in value.
The status peddling nature of those jobs really muddy the water as to what’s important and should be honored by society at large.
MaximumCuddles
11mo ago
And to think this placed used to have a big overlap with /r/drama, where “dude bussy lmao” was respected discourse. Truly, how far have we fallen?
But in seriousness yes, it’s usually a term applied, sometimes with a touch of irony, to Femboys & twinks and other entries into the genre of feminine or feminized men on the recieving end.
MaximumCuddles
11mo ago
Fracturing someone’s skull is absolutely nuts. It is the hardest bone in the body, it’s extremely strong, very few people on earth can do that spontaneously barehanded.
My understanding is that’s virtually unheard of in women’s combat sports, and very uncommon even in top level men’s combat sports.
MaximumCuddles
11mo ago
Allow me to dissent from the group, this whole thread is kind of a fun reminder how self selected this group is.
It’s a red flag in the sense that it’s an incredibly low bar to clear for domestic organization, similar to making your bed in the morning or keeping your sink clean.
I’m a man, but I’d still take it as a sign someone doesn’t have their shit together if they didn’t go trough the rather minimal effort to bundle their socks together.
The lack of having this done signals a bunch of clustered psychological/emotional problems including but not limited to being on the spectrum, suffering depression, having poor hygiene, having poor time management skills, lack of social skills, oppositional defiance disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and on and on.
I learned to do this as a bachelor, along with folding clothes, ironing shirts, learning to cook, keeping my bathroom clean, etc, etc.
Y’all mfers need some Dr. Peterson in your life it seems to me.
MaximumCuddles
11mo ago
Honestly that’s harsh but fair
MaximumCuddles
11mo ago
I feel like the last Zelda game I got excited for was Hyper Light Drifter
I’m only being semi ironic, that game was incredible and very clearly inspired by “A Link to the Past”, which is the best game in the series that I’ve played.
“When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am Stronger than you, I take away your Freedom Because that is according to my principles.”
I return to this quote daily at this point.
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