Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
Burnt out, over the hill autistic IT nerd and longtime SSC lurker
User ID: 3219
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
5d ago
I know a lot of people like The Culture series, would you advise me to persevere or try another book or just look elsewhere entirely?
If you're not feeling the overall vibe of Banks' work then I'd encourage you to go ahead and drop him from your list. Life's too short to read stuff that's only kinda appealing and all that. While Banks' novels, be they Culture novels or not, build different worlds and, to an extent, explore different ideas, they all tend to have the same sorts of edges to them, and if that's not engaging you, then you're really not missing anything by letting them go. FWIW, I've read quite a few of his books, and they're not bad by any objective stretch, but at the same time I have several more that I may not ever read because I've lost the desire to engage in his work myself. I'll probably read one in the not-too-distant future, perhaps just because of this comment, but still, there never seems to be a heart to any of his books that I've read.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
6d ago
Daring (Pax Arcana Book 2), by Elliott James.
@Titanium Butterfly, City was quite thought-provoking! Not at all surprising coming from Simak, and I'm really glad that someone has dedicated themselves to getting his stuff published. I've probably read at least one book that was directly influenced by it--don't remember the exact name of it, maybe Manta's Gift, but it was by Timothy Zahn.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
7d ago
I think we see this along broadly similar lines, and I would add that the reason I spot more often in men is simply because most of my knowledge comes from them. The only FTM gender dysphoria case I know of is firmly in the first category according to her therapist, and I trust that judgment. More broadly, there's a decent amount of teens that identify as trans and the overall "vibe" that I get from the therapeutic standpoint is that these teens are largely trying out gender (and sexual) identities that are subject to change, as teenagers do in general with their identity.
To dig into MTF a little more specifically, firstly I'm not seeing anything in your description of the MTFs that you know that shouts BPD to me either, and my expectation is that MTF plus BPD is no more than a significant minority. That significant minority is definitely a Thing in my book, though, and what makes them stick out like sore thumbs to me is the DRAMA. Mostly, this seems to present as the individual almost always reporting that relationship failures and poor interpersonal dynamics are because people can't accept the MTF identity of the individual. Said individual never questions the role of their own behavior and treatment of others. There's a particular incident that sticks out in my mind here where a MTF teenaged client's MTF parent hijacked the kid's session and spent it all ranting about their own struggles loudly enough that I could hear it from a room away. The self-centeredness, lack of empathy, and splitting seemed to me to be dripping from just about every sentence. The session was supposed to be about how to help your struggling kid, for crying out loud! Occasionally, the reason for the relationship failures, poor interpersonal dynamics, etc., is seen by the MTF individual as more generally due to envy, jealousy, and other negative emotions that others have, as in, "I'm the hottest of the hot girls and they're just jealous and out to get me!" Either way, it's classic cluster B and to me matches BPD behavior in particular.
If you've got more thoughts, I'm more than happy to continue the conversation too. I think I've mentioned before that my wife is a therapist and some of this is based upon her experience. She is an idealist and is all about the needs of her clients, but even she privately confides in me that she worries about the social contagion aspect herself and cannot speak with this even with her cohort of fellow therapists.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
8d ago
I was deliberately vague because my answer has CW implications but I suppose putting it in spoiler tags is a decent compromise:
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
8d ago
Three word rejoinder: sunk cost fallacy.
Words fail to convey how deeply black-pilling this particular subject has been for me. Not only is cutting entitlements generally unpopular in the abstract, cutting SS specifically would, I think, be generally seen as a massive breach of the American social contract, given that it is commonly represented not as an entitlement but as a retirement fund for the elderly. I've spoken with a lot of people over my decades about the inevitability of Social Security's demise, and even run into a few that understand that it's always been a massive Ponzi scheme, but the vast majority of them have a level of emotional investment in getting their fair share of SS that precludes any productive dialogue or planning to avoid the inevitable shortfalls. The common refrain that I've heard when talking to people is that the FICA taxes they've paid are, "their money," making me a pedantic asshole if I point out that no, what you've paid is a tax and what you'll receive if you live to retirement age is an entitlement, and moreover, there have been several Supreme Court cases that reaffirm the actual underlying legal reality of SS. I have actually heard the, "it's my money," refrain even from the very person (whom I admire greatly) that introduced me to ancap philosophy and is generally anti-government!
So while I'd agree that what you're proposing isn't unreasonable, I don't think that reason has a thing to do with it.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
8d ago
The borderline between neurosis and psychosis is the one that I learned and I personally think it's a better fit overall, though "borderline functioning" does fit a lot of BPDs as well. Thinking about it a little more, most of the higher functioning BPDs that I know of have/had some outside support that contributed to their stability, though the drama in their lives was also more manageable and lower stakes as well. Either way, I suspect there are always the go-to delusions that are close at hand, and that level of functioning probably correlates pretty closely to the BPD's level of investment/preoccupation with their personal delusions. Similarly, IME the higher functioning BPDs seem to have more of a core personality, although even in the higher-functioning BPDs that I've known, I have seen them take radical departures from their default personas, which can be pretty wild when a middle-aged person comes off like a teenager that started hanging out with a different crowd!
As for attachment dynamics, that makes a lot of sense, although I would also say that basic gender and hormonal differences play a large part there; I flirted with Behavioralism as a teenager (as one does) but time, newer research, and personal experience have all led me to firmly disbelieve that humans are little blank slates at birth. Sorry, Skinner! And yeah, I also think that there is a significant subset of men that are BPD and misdiagnosed for various reasons, one of which seems blindingly obvious to me, but only on the BPD side. APDs, almost all male, for sure.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
9d ago
So it potentially helps Elon to some extent, to make a more dramatic break from Trump with big WWF promos cut from both of them. It depends on how the media plays it, but this could be the same kind of whiplash that erases a fair amount of elon derangement among democrats and lets him slip out of washington with a bit more independent posture intact.
Hmm, this brings to mind the old chestnut about how Howard Hughes used to denounce all of his former executives when they left his employ. If I remember the story correctly, this was a deliberate ploy on Hughes' part. Said employee would then sue Hughes for defamation and Hughes would settle, thereby giving his former employee a large sum of cash that was, thanks to the court involvement, free of taxation.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
9d ago
Again, I agree on all counts! I actually didn't know that borderline referred to borderline psychosis either, in fact. Initially, I took it to mean that BPD meant that the individual didn't have much of a personality of their own and adapted the personality of their friends a la Single White Female because that was my sister's behavior. And not only do I agree that there's waaaaaaaaaaay too much equivalence between mood swings and bipolar in general, I'd also add that I've heard people at work say that they deliberately diagnosed a BPD client with bipolar to get them access to services that they would otherwise be ineligible to receive because personality disorder.
On the final front, I can't help but wonder if the environmental chaos that surrounds the BPD individual plus the individual genetics just make it that much easier for BPD to emerge from the witches' brew of the home. I know, for instance, that my mother would often go back to her ur-trauma of losing her father at a tender young age, compounded by her mother quickly marrying another man to re-make the family, and I do ultimately believe that there's a lot of truth there in her specific case. Likewise, when my sister and I were young (she would have been 4), mom was in a serious car accident and almost died, so that or perhaps going through with a planned move to another state on the heels of that could have done it for her. Regardless, I can only speculate.
Yeah, I completely agree, although I think that the "borderline" aspect of BPD conveys important information, namely that the sufferer's emotional distortions can be indistinguishable from psychosis.
And on the genetic front in particular, the evidence from my n=1 family is damn sobering. Maternal grandmother? Check. Maternal aunt that share's my mother's father? Also check. Sister? Check? Her first daughter? Also check. That's 66% of the daughters from mom's immediate family, with the non-BPD aunt having a different father, and 50% of my sister's daughters, with the younger one also having a different father. And none of the men in my immediate family have fathered a daughter.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
9d ago
heard legends of people doing stuff like playing bloody knuckles or sack tap, but never have known anyone personally who did that.
IDK if it's age, or peer group, or what, but inflicting pain on each other for teh lulz was a definite part of my childhood and adolescent experience. Bloody knuckles, hot hands, "Indian" burns, and the like were all a part of my experience as a child. And by the time I was a Senior in HS, I had friends that would literally sneak up behind another unsuspecting friend, reach between the legs of the target, grab the target's scrotum and yank it backwards while pushing the target forward and down with their other hand, and then laugh like hell at the results. No one was safe! For bonus points, one of these friends managed to pull of a newly-invented variant of this on me at work just as the CEO walked in, which was funny to me both then and now.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
9d ago
But I also can't help but feel a real sadness in my heart for people whose internal life is so utterly dichotomous and disintegrated that anything resembling this appears like appropriate behavior for them. I can't imagine the internal anguish this must reflect. That's really what distinguishes BPD from APD: psychopaths will hurt and manipulate you to get what they want from you, and feel nothing, while borderlines will hurt and manipulate you as a part of hurting and manipulating themselves, and feel everything.
It doesn't make their behavior and the damage they do any more justifiable, but I just imagine borderlines as bundles of suffering so radiant in their suffering that the rest of the world gets sucked into their black hole of anguish, a kind of anti-divinity. It's no wonder people are so attracted to what is essentially a dark god! The pervasive feeling of being around a borderline is much like being around a prophet -- everything is extreme, the world is transcendent, and wrong is evil. If you are appreciated by them, you're given a rare gift, a precious pearl of great price. (This is the male equivalent to the "I can fix the abusive husband" meme.)
Yeah, I have to agree with the general sentiment that you have the essence of BPD there. My own mental shorthand has been that BPD really epitomizes the proverbial lead role in a cage, but I really like the way you've described it! I'm convinced that my mother is high-functioning BPD and radiant suffering has been my mother's MO for as long as I can remember. And the pearl of great price... also yes. Jeff Foxworthy's old quip, "when mom ain't happy, ain't nobody happy," hit home for my entire family and on the other side, when mom was pleased with us and willing to show it, it was sunshine. The distortions that I've internalized from my childhood are still so prevalent that I still struggle with them frequently. I mean, except for all of these crazy off-the-chain examples mom wasn't that bad! But when I really step back and think about that a little more deeply, I realize that it's really just that mom was usually able to escape or at least mitigate the consequences of her actions.
And FWIW, yeah, I've been drawn to a certain level of intensity in my own relationships as well. While I haven't been attracted to BPD women per se, I'm pretty sure all of my serious partners have had BPD mothers, up to and including my MIL.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
9d ago
Back on point, when I was in my 20's I was an asshole. I mean, I still am an asshole, but in my 20's I was a major asshole. But when I think back, everyone in my 20's was a major asshole. [...]
I don't know how you get two assholes to pair off and endure each other until they stop being assholes. I don't know how you get 25 year olds to not be assholes. I don't know how you make the whole experience of having your ego sandblasted off by other assholes so demoralizing you don't tune out of society all together.
Lowers helmet
Keep firing, assholes!
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
10d ago
Thanks, I'll definitely keep it in my read list then, but perhaps I'll start on something from the recommended section before getting back to it!
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
10d ago
Glad to hear that you're enjoying it, it's a fascinating world! I likewise enjoyed The Primal Hunter, though I did find the text a touch on the dry side. I'll probably buy the sequel at some point and I'll definitely check out Worth the Candle when I hit my next inevitable LitRPG overdose.
In the meantime, wouldn't you know it, City just popped up for sale on Kindle the other day. I've read the first three stories that make up the book and am looking forward to reading more tonight!
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
13d ago
I can certainly relate to that! In fact, I'm a few books behind on He Who Fights Monsters because Jason can, at times, be insufferably eye-rolling. Right now I like Jake a little better but I don't find Zogarth's writing style to be quite as engaging as Shirtaloon's overall. Still, for me there's lots to like in both series and as I've said in last week's thread, I'm a cheap date for Kindle books!
Almost 2/3 of the way through the first book. I'll probably continue the series, though the MC's build is reminiscent of the MC from He Who Fights Monsters, another LitRPG series that I've been reading.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
15d ago
If you've ever seen how the sausage gets made at a major company, jobs are very much withheld and created on more of an internal, political basis than any actual needs the companies have. On top of that, most major organizations are still barely adapted to using spreadsheets and the most simple algorithmic techniques that were created decades ago. Literally just using excel to automate tasks could save these companies tens of millions of dollars a year. And yet... they don't?
Ah. You've met both my employer and the department that employs them at the State level, I see.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
16d ago
I mean, my wife doesn't love it when I start in on an infodump, but she married me anyway and we make it work. She has occasionally quoted Jen from The IT Crowd at me, specifically making white static noise at me or saying, "I want to stop listening to this," to bring me back to Earth, a behavior that I have encouraged so that she doesn't have to get ever-more lost in what I'm on about.
Did I warn you that I'm totally a cheap date when it comes to Kindle books in general and LitRPG in particular since it plugs right into the brain centers that began to develop the first time I picked up D&D as a wee lad? Because I'm totally a cheap date when it comes to Kindle books in general and LitRPG in particular! That disclaimer out of the way, while I can't remember anything specifically atheistic in DCC, it's more than crapsack (grimdark?) enough of a setting to invoke that sort of thing and Carl is definitely guilty of wangst-filled thought monologues throughout the series; I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one or more of those was explicitly atheistic and it just didn't register highly enough for me to remember it. Anyway, I should probably qualify the series that I've enjoyed so let me do that real quick, starting with the fact that out of all of them, 12 Miles Below is the only one that doesn't have any sort of comparative rules or system and that in fact intriguing enemies and RPG systems are definitely one of the hooks that get me into series. So:
- 12 Miles Below: I utterly adore the world and the worldbuilding of this series. Good writing and characters as well! I'll devour these as soon as they appear.
- Noobtown: Intricate RPG system, lots of "fish out of water" humor along with hysterical foil characters, lots of pop culture referencing, not too heavy of a tone in general with periodic exceptions for reasons of Plot.
- He Who Fights Monsters: Another intricate RPG system, tons of fights, many of them epic, surprising world, character and system depth overall, which isn't surprising given that the series is long and still unfinished. That said, the MC is a self-described chuunibyou and he's got a lot of that wangst going on, so maybe get some other opinions if those things don't sound like your cup of tea.
- The Menocht Loop: I don't even remember how this one came across my radar but I utterly adore the magic system and the worldbuilding of these books. This series starts with the MC being way OP for his world but explores what that looks like in a larger 'verse. This is perhaps the best written series of all of the ones that I mentioned, with a well-thought-out magic system, and a rich 'verse for the characters to explore. Exceptionally well written characters, at that.
- The Dungeon Slayer: Just good overall, but an interesting system where most characters are locked into their overall level and skillset, with the exception of the MC who starts with nothing but can actually advance. Some interesting characters and bosses and good fighting as well.
- Oh, Great, I was Reincarnated as a Farmer: This one's another humorous, "fish out of water," series, that's all about the MC gaming the System to advance and prosper despite the lowly farmer class he inherits when he enters the world. Not outstanding, but the humor largely worked for me and did I mention that I'm a cheap date to begin with?
And thanks for the recommendations! I haven't read any of your main recommendations yet, though it sounds like I'll have to check out all of them at some point. I actually have Primal Hunter in my Kindle library, but I know I haven't read it yet. In fact, I have several LitRPG books and even series in my library that I haven't gotten around to because some shiny daily or countdown deal caught my fancy as I have a bad habit of reading the free sample and then buying if I like what I've read, sometimes multiple books in the series. Looking at you, Guardian of Aster Fall series. Don't think I've forgotten you either, Cyber Dreams. And that's just LitRPG in particular, I have plenty of sci-fi, fantasy, nonfiction, and psych stuff in my library to read (someday?) as well, so I'm definitely on your wavelength there. And doggone it, I only ever did read the first few books of the Master and Commander series... But yeah, I'll have to check out your must-reads and honorable mentions for sure!
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
16d ago
Interesting! I'm not big on audiobooks as I tend to prefer the speed of reading and the imagery that my head evokes but there's definitely a lot to appreciate in a good narrator. I may have to give a James Marsters narrated Dresden Files novel at some point, for instance, because that sounds a lot like a Reese's Cup combination right there. But yes, I'll have to see how much the audiobook will set me back and I'll definitely drop a line if/when I pick up City and give it a read. I'm positive I've seen it on sale at the Kindle store at some point in the not too distant past so I view it as only a matter of time. :)
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
16d ago
Same, I gotta say that IMO a lot of this just boils down to industrialized food targeting the lowest common denominator, which is to say that sweet and salty tastes in particular tend to be ramped up in most store-bought food items in order to enhance its appeal to the mean human palate.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
16d ago
Dungeon Crawler Carl was my gateway drug to LitRPG and it's must-read series in my book. Others that I have highly enjoyed include 12 Miles Below, Noobtown, He Who Fights Monsters, The Menocht Loop, The Dungeon Slayer, and Oh, Great, I Was Reincarnated as a Farmer. Some of these aren't, strictly speaking, LitRPG in the sense that they talk about and/or expose game mechanics in any sense, but they're all good. There are a couple more series that I left out that I don't think were categorized as LitRPG and there are a few more series that I've read but didn't continue for various reasons, a big one unfortunately being genre fatigue.
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
17d ago
Wow, The Diamond Age is my single favorite work of his as well! Given your dislike for those aspects of Reamde, I'd definitely tell you to stay away from Fall--it takes that reverse verisimilitude and cranks it up to 11, so much so that my favorite review of it described it as fractally bad. I would add that Fall is a dreadfully predictable wall-banger of a novel that's about as subtle as a brick to the head. Worse, it wears Neal Stephenson's style as a skin suit. Seveneves isn't that bad, IMO, if you can stand an expy of Neal DeGrasse Tyson being a character and played straight as a hyperintelligent protagonist, though there are other parts you might not enjoy as well.
I was just talking about WoT a few weeks back and while the series as a whole was kinda uneven for me (tl;dr I loved the first four and last three books, it's
5-125-11 that could be so-so) I still have to say it's an excellent series overall. I think @SubstantialFrivolity is dead on in observing that the wait for the next book was a significant factor in making the slog through the slower-paced books more difficult for me personally as well. More generally, with a story of such epic scope, there's almost bound to be some characters that you're eager to read more of, others that are irritating and/or frustrating, some plot threads that you find really satisfying, and other plot threads that are b-o-o-ring to the point of tears. But even with everything we fans have to complain about, it's still a hell of an epic tale at the end of the day. I'd encourage you to stick with it a bit longer (although certainly pull the ripcord if it's not grabbed you by the end of the first book at the latest) and see whether or not it picks up for you.More options
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