TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
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User ID: 616
You hit the nail on the head here, and highlighted something that isn’t often discussed but is absolutely crucial to the dominance of modernistic liberal culture. Hyper mobility of location and the willingness to abandon your birth culture is completely baked into the current ruling class. In order to pass the crucible and become an elite, you absolutely must be willing to throw your previous, place-rooted culture under the bus. It’s not even hidden or very subtle.
Part of this culture is the criticism or doubt in almost everything. New York WASPs are out of touch and bad because they’re rich. Deep South folks are out of touch and bad because they love white people and hate black people. Californians are okay but there are still plenty of bad apples there that need to be eradicated.
Overall the modern elite liberal culture demands total obedience to the demands of their ideology. While it’s not explicitly written in a declaration of loyalty like previous political ideologies have created, the social reality is undeniable. And the lack of an explicitly written down creed which denounces one’s culture of birth, while simultaneously demanding this denunciation socially, is in my opinion modern progressivism’s most impressive and almost unique strength.
Strip a man of the ideals and culture he grew up with, and he will have no recourse but to toe the party line and double down on the latest progressive ideology.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
4mo ago
More generally, a lot of modernity serves the interests of a small minority of happily atomized PMC ‘decouplers’ who want to maximize their individual freedom at the expense of the institutions that allow for a more broad-based happiness. “I can gamble without getting addicted, so why shouldn’t I be allowed to? I can smoke mountains of 20%+ thc weed without losing all motivation and sitting on my couch watching SpongeBob all day, so why shouldn’t I be allowed to? I can find meaning and happiness in hedonism, consumption and career success, so why shouldn’t we abandon traditional forms of spirituality? I can have casual sex with many people without any physical harm or psychological damage coming to me, so why shouldn’t I be able to without condemnation?” The problem comes if freeing these people from the chains of tradition and obligation actively damages the lives of many others, and I think it does.
Incredibly well said, AAQC'ed. This line of thinking is something I've believed for a long time without being able to put into words exactly. As much as I love @BurdensomeCount and his excellent trolling, he is definitely the exact type of person our modern, atomistic society is set up to serve.
And while individual liberty is overall a good compared to the previous system of tyrannical monarchies, I absolutely agree we've taken it too far. Perhaps if we could find a situation where individual liberty was allowed but sort of looked down upon or difficult to achieve, that would be far better. That way only those extremely motivated to pursue liberty will achieve it, while the majority will be "stuck" with traditional modes of life that likely fit them better, and help balance out their negative inclinations.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
5mo ago
To bring up another post from last week, I'm going to go ahead and repost @justcool393's piece on the Sam Altman/OpenAI/Microsoft situation, since she posted it a few hours ago and right before the last thread went down.
Here's her writing:
Another day, another entrant into the OpenAI drama. Emmett Shear is the new interim CEO of OpenAI.
I don't know why it was surprising to people that Sam wouldn't come back. The company was meant to be subservient to the nonprofit's goals and I'm not sure why the attempted coup from Sam's side (you know the whole effectively false reporting that Sam Altman was to become the new CEO) was apparently "shocking" that it failed.
The OpenAI board has hired Emmett Shear as CEO. He is the former CEO of Twitch.
My understanding is that Sam is in shock.
https://twitter.com/emilychangtv/status/1726468006786859101
What's kinda sad about all of this is how much people were yearning for Sam Altman to be the CEO as if he isn't probably one of the worst possible candidates. Like maybe this is just a bunch of technolibertarians on Twitter or HN or something who think that the ultimate goal of humanity is how many numbers on a screen you can earn, but the amazing amount of unearned reverence towards a VC to lead the company.
In any case, here's to hoping that Laundry Buddy won't win out in the rat race for AGI, lest we live in a world optimized for maximum laundry detergent. Maybe we'll avoid that future now with Sam's departure.
Anyway, I'll leave this to munch on which I found from the HN thread.
Motte: e/acc is just techno-optimism, everyone who is against e/acc must be against building a better future and hate technology
Bailey: e/acc is about building a techno-god, we oppose any attempt to safeguard humanity by regulating AI in any form around and around and around"
https://twitter.com/eshear/status/1683208767054438400
I'm reposting here because I'm convinced, like many other residents, that the ongoing drama of who controls AI development has far reaching implications, likely on the scale of major power geopolitical events. If not ultimately even greater.
To add a bit to the discussion to justify reposting - I think many of these discussions around AI Safety versus Accelerationism are extremely murky because so many people in secular, rationalistic circles are extremely averse to claiming religious belief. It's clear to me that both AI Safety and Accelerationism have strong themes of classical religion, and seem to be two different sects of a religion battling it out over the ultimate ideology. Potentially similar to early Orthodox Christians versus Gnostics.
Alternatively, @2rafa has argued that many of the E/Acc (effective accelerationism) crowd comes from bored technocrats who just want to see something exciting happen. I tend to agree with that argument as well, given how devoid of purpose most of the technocratic social world is. Religion and religious-style movements tend to provide that purpose, but when you are explicitly secular I suppose you have to get your motivation elsewhere.
We've also got the neo-luddites like @ArjinFerman who just hate AI entirely and presumably want us to go back to the mid 90s with the fun decentralized internet. Not sure, I haven't actually discussed with him. I can actually agree with some of the Ludditism, but I'd argue we need to go back to 1920 or so and ban all sorts of propaganda, mass media and advertising.
Anyway, clearly the technological battle for the future of our civilization continues to heat up. The luddites seem out, but may have a surprising last hour comeback. The woke/political left leaning folks seem to be strongly in charge, though the OpenAI scandal points to trouble in the Olympian heights of Silicon Valley AI decision makers.
Will the Grey Tribe use AGI to come back and finally recover the face and ground it has lost to the advancing SJW waves? Who knows. I'm just here for the tea.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
7mo ago
Sorry articleworm, but you're wrong. You can't truly develop a good knowledge base without books.
See, aren't low-effort dunks fun?
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
8mo ago
I disagree with Hanania, and the DRY principle here. Learning information is difficult, and incorporating it into your thought even moreso. Especially in such an information saturated world.
Having multiple examples and dense information in books is a feature. Humans can't just read something once and automatically grasp it. We need to hear ideas multiple times in different ways to understand.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
9mo ago
Oh, absolutely. Speaking Truth to Power is no longer fashionable - it's illegal and demonized. As @official_techsupport mentioned elsewhere, the fashion is now to speak Power to Truth.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
6mo ago
This is why people don’t like game theory and people who use it to justify asshole behavior. You can apply your fancy math stuff all you like, I’ll still think you’re a dick.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
6mo ago
Read old books. Read great literature. Us moderns don't know as much as we think.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
7mo ago
This state of affairs is undeniable, in my experience. As academia has become less of a walled garden, and more of a finishing school for half the populace, it has lost the functional ability to question seriously the deep truths of our society.
On the one hand because so many more people go to university, the benefit of capturing professors has increased greatly. It also means that it's become harder for professors to hold views the public at large would disagree with, as we have seen with the increasing mobs of students harassing professors with even slightly heterodox views.
As you point out, I also think the fact that modern philosophy disdains any sort of religious or wisdom-focused value structure leads to a lot of idiocy.
At this point it's clear that the majority who are interested in practicing actual philosophy, focused on questions deep assumptions, are doing it outside of the university structure.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
8mo ago
So just a quick note - I quit drinking alcohol daily, and my life has improved drastically. I would never have called myself an alcoholic, but I did like to have a few beers and/or a glass or two of whisky after the work day.
I quit drinking daily mostly on a lark, and partly because I was trying to cut back on expenses. I'm shocked at how many benefits I've seen.
It's far easier to write. Focusing in general comes to me much more easily, even things like focusing at work which I found difficult.
I've lost about 10 pounds and gotten to my goal weight without any outside effort (in fact I feel like I eat more to compensate for not drinking) but still.
On top of that, I'm much better able to regulate and feel my emotions. Despite not getting drunk very often, alcohol apparently still had a large numbing effect on me.
For any other casual drinkers who are thinking of stopping, I'd recommend it. I still plan to drink here and there with friends or at social events, but I had no idea how much of a negative impact my couple drinks a day was having on my life.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
8mo ago
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
9mo ago
Nothing to see here--it's all part of nature. Understand how it works, make sure you're not the mouse/fly/blueberry, and move on happily with your own life.
This ideology may work decently for you individually, although I think it takes a heroic individual to truly accept that brutal state of affairs.
Over time though, and on a societal level, this type of thinking will inevitably descend back into the might-makes-right, strong eat the weak world that we rose from. During the Axial revolution back around the time of Socrates, men realized that they could make themselves better. That there was a different way to live than simply accepting Nature as red in tooth and claw - we could master nature. But more importantly, we could master ourselves.
All the beauty and ease your life is filled with has been delivered to you from generations of your ancestors that rejected this naturalistic worldview in order to build a better future for their descendants. You can spit on their sacrifices and just focus on getting yours, man, but I reject your worldview as fundamentally selfish, and wrong.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
9mo ago
I’d love to see you flesh this out in a top level post, for what it’s worth!
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
9mo ago
Well said, it is truly outrageous how much was justified on such flimsy evidence and outright lies.
I am surprised that right wingers in Florida and Texas haven’t been grandstanding more about being right though.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
9mo ago
Interesting article! Thanks for linking.
I've heard these comparisons, and as I've mentioned before I'm extremely bullish on the social contagion hypothesis for the majority of mental illness cases. It's an especially pernicious problem because once an illness becomes too 'saturated' like anorexia has been, the cultural cachet of the diagnoses plummets and the fad moves on. All that's left is hordes of people with broken lives and nothing to show for it.
I'm convinced that the modern world's turn away from religion is the main culprit here. That being said, I've been an agnostic for most of my life, so I don't think anyone is necessarily to blame when it comes to turning our backs on old religions. Unfortunately it's just extremely difficult to reconcile modern scientific knowledge with old religious worldviews. I think what many religious people, especially on this forum, miss is that for many agnostics or athiests it's not that they don't want to believe, rather that they find it practically impossible to believe in a religion which demands they lay down the rules of science and empiricism.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
7mo ago
As a young person I have little to no expectation of receiving social security money.
Yeah, this is the most brutal part. Seeing such a huge chunk of every paycheck taken, knowing that you'll never see a cent of it again even though the justification is that you're 'saving for your own retirement.' What a huge disaster, sigh.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
7mo ago
It's crazy how far things have swung in just 15 years.
Imagine where we might go in another 15...
The more I see of the modern political landscape, the more I want to advocate for a gradualist approach. At least for social conventions and laws, if not for technology. Then again I would sacrifice the measly technological gains we've made in the past 15 years to go back to that time period from a social and legal standpoint. ChatGPT is amazing, but not worth it.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
8mo ago
I had basically no limitations. I had access to the internet, and my parents mostly had no idea what I could get to on there. I don't think I would have appreciated any kinds of limitations.
Yep I grew up with the same 'parenting' approach. I regret it every day, and truly wish I had more discipline and was forced to do something other than spend 12-14 hours a day gaming during my youth. It has caused me no end of problems and issues to work around.
I'm glad a lack of limitations worked for you - I'd argue that it's a total abdication of parental responsibility, and while every now and then we get a gem like you cjet, the majority of kids that grow up with no guidance or limitations have an extremely difficult road to climb to become mature adults. @guesswho, I would caution you that it is possible to live in a sick culture. If a culture will teach your child to be weak, to never develop, to stew in anger and blame others constantly for their problems, it is absolutely better in every conceivable way to shield them and instill good values in them.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
9mo ago
I'm surprised to find I agree with you. Society has become feminized in the extreme, to the point where even institutions that have been male-only for hundreds of years are bowing under the pressure.
The most pernicious thing about this feminization is that it's so far outside the Overton window to even talk in these terms, that most masculine projects and fraternal organizations are dead on arrival. Any mainstream politician talking about helping men, like the Obama example above, gets eviscerated by the feminist movement immediately.
I know it's passe to bring up social media all the time, but I also think it's an excellent example of how so much of our energy is spent in the social realm, traditionally dominated by women, rather than the masculine realm of conquering nature. Imagine what we could've accomplished if we could capture all the capital, labor, and ingenuity that went into social media and shift it into something like materials science, or space exploration, or energy infrastructure, or artificial intelligence, or any other field that has a more direct impact on the world.
Anyway, I agree that society will have to learn to accept and work for men, or we are in for dark times ahead.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
4mo ago
I’ll just say, you may find that a serious relationship is the most intense crucible of your life to this point. Committing to someone and hoping to be with them for the rest of your life, or perhaps even start a family, is no joke. It should be taken seriously emotionally.
It sounds like you’re in the mindset that you shouldn’t be feeling weird about it, that you should stay as cool as a cucumber throughout the whole process. Unfortunately that’s just not how these things work, unless you’re a sociopath. Expect to have more emotions down the road if you continue with this lady, and get used to dealing with them. There are all sorts of tactics out there, personally I’d recommend prayer.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
5mo ago
The AI race should be modeled as a bunch of scheming sorcerers hissing "Ultimate power must be MINE at all costs!" because everything else is kayfabe.
Hah this one got a good chuckle out of me. 100% agree. Especially once you start to meet some folks deep in the AI crowd within rationalism/EA, you begin to see that all the public talking points are facades. The views and goals these people actually have behind closed doors are far crazier than anything you'd hear in public.
Scheming sorcerers hissing about ultimate power is absolutely the best comparison I've seen so far.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
7mo ago
To add a bit of a Jungian lense, I would say the problem is that the vast majority of people aren't very capable of rational abstraction, and instead understand the world through stories. I include myself and many other 'wordcels' in this category as well. To truly grasp large numbers we're working with is the province of autists, savants and mathematicians.
Unfortunately there simply hasn't been enough time for stories of large societies to reach archetypal status. With focus, dedication, a propensity for rationality and a high starting point of intellect one can bootstrap oneself into a sort of hodge-podged understanding of what is required at these large societal levels. But the idea that the everyday person could get to even a basic understanding is ridiculous.
The terrifying truth of the modern world, which most don't dare to speak out loud, is that there are only a handful of humans on Earth who can even glimpse the full complexity of human society. Not to mention the world itself. It's the old Redditism, "even adults don't know what they're doing, lol!" writ large, and without the ironic and detached humor.
I'd agree that modern communications technology makes this problem far, far worse as well.
TheDag
Per Aspera ad Astra
7mo ago
Yeah it has been really strange watching all the progressive media coming out recently that ham-fistedly brings up the pandemic. Not a fan at all.
This is all to say that I think that everything you said is old news, so I'm wondering, why did you bring it up? Is there some greater context surrounding your post that would be relevant to it, that would cast it in a new light, to spark debate amongst the Motte?
I'll echo @CertainlyWorse here. Your generation (mine too it sounds like) is not the only one to exist. One of the most important things we do on the Motte is not, in my opinion, delving further and further into the frontiers of 'Truth' and 'Knowledge,' free from the censors of the mainstream internet.
In reality, the main benefit of the Motte is far more mundane. We are here to keep a record, and keep track of the sophistry that is increasingly peddled in all corners of the modern Western world. We provide a guidepost or a haven for those who believe in heterodox ideas, but don't want to go fully into the toxic, hate-driven, and ultimately non-intellectual parts of the online discourse that make up the vast majority of the 'heterodox' sphere.
While we are quite small with regards to the rest of those rejecting mainstream motte and bailey tactics, I like to think we are some of the most reasonable and even positive groups out there that attempt to have logical arguments.
Thanks @Londondare for doing your part to keep this effort alive.
I’ll echo what other posters have contended with, mainly that this post argues folks that live in American suburbs are:
Who
And are
Where is your evidence for this? How could you be persuaded of a counterpoint?
In fact, what is your argument in this post? All I’m reading is that you think people in the American middle class who own suburbs are inherently bad, and have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Do you think none of these people love their spouses, their children, or their community? Are you really so ready to attack their entire way of life because you don’t understand them?
How about this. You’re a poor American who has worked hard your entire life. You’ve jumped through the hoops, tried your best, earned the status symbols and are trying to wrest some meaning from your life. You’re tired and you just want to relax and enjoy your small house with your family. You indulge in the aesthetic sensibilities that you were socialized into.
Please explain, why are these people bad, exactly? If you can give me a coherent argument, without relying on constant smears, I would be willing to engage with you.
Otherwise I’m siding with @Amadan and @naraburns, in that I’d like to see far less of this type of post on this site.
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