coffee_enjoyer
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User ID: 541
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
Hamas has the ability to place covert members in expatriate communities. Half of all Palestinians are diaspora. But they don’t do this, so perhaps it’s reasonable to assume they don’t want to just kill Jews. Perhaps they want to reclaim their lost territory?
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
If hatred of Jews were their first principle, we would see overseas Palestinians wage attacks on Jewish communities, where the communities do not have the heightened security of the Israeli state apparatus. That we pretty much never see that (thank God) is strong evidence that their grievances are against Israel and her people. In the average uneducated, undernourished, 85 IQ Palestinian mind, it’s a waste of time to distinguish between Israeli Jews and Israeli Zionists. Their enemies are uniformly Jewish-Zionist citizens of Israel.
I looked into the water pipe claim and I don’t see compelling evidence that this happened. It’s originally traced to a 2021 Telegraph article, which takes footage from a Memri Documentary. But per the documentary,
While the plan to reuse the explosives in the Israeli shells was moving ahead, long water pipelines were found buried in the areas of the settlements from which Israel withdrew in 2005. This discovery turned out to be a qualitative leap. These pipes, which stretched from the liberated settlements in the west across the Israeli border to the east, had been hidden from the eye. For years, they served Israel in its theft of Palestinian water. In the belly of the Earth, we found large quantities of thick metal pipes. It was part of a network that had been used to steal Gaza's groundwater and pump it into the occupied lands. We discovered the plans for that network, and then we dug into the ground and pulled out the pipes, so that they could be used in our military industries."
Given that this documentary is from 2020 and the Telegraph article is from 2021, it’s reasonable to trust the Memri documentary. Especially because it shows other procedures like collecting underseas Israeli munitions.
it’s a who/whom all the way down
I agree. Palestinians don’t magically want to kill Israelis as a deeply-held first principle. They want to kill Israelis for various perceived moral grievances against the state at large. As an example, there are 700,000 Israeli Jewish settlers in the West Bank, many of whom presumably knowing that their actions have been condemned by the UN. You don’t get 700,000 people violating international law without a serious problem of complicity among the general public in Israel.
If we are to continue the Southern metaphor — who are the Palestinians? Are they the slaves waging a revolt? I think few people today would condemn Nat Turner, or the slave revolt of Haiti, despite the casualties. Or are they the Southerners fighting for their right to self-determination? IMO it’s elements of both. Perhaps Hezbollah are the noble Northern cause, willing to go scorched earth to free a captive people? I would say no, but that’s how they would see themselves.
I think re: Robert E Lee, his veneration isn’t due to being pro-slavery. It’s due to his character. He was considered by many Americans at the time to have a great character and an honest disposition. And this should be extolled, because conflict is inevitable for the human race, and the most we can ask for is that our enemies behave like the idealized Robert E Lee — truthful, dignified, humble, and willing to compromise.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
I guess “you all right?” is just a more positive way of asking “how are ya”.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
Why was there so much pressure for everyone to rise up and speak out during other injustices (Ukraine, Uyghurs, BLM, etc) but for this one, the advice is to shut up, sit down, stay out of it?
I don’t think this is the advice, I think there’s just chaos in the discourse. Ukraine and Uyghurs were Kaczynski-type pseudo-revolts, the System’s Neatest Trick: capturing the energy of potential rebels and sublimating them to what the system actually wants. BLM was similar, killing three birds with one stone: propagating against Trump, pitting the white majority against each other (including upper class vs middle class police / small business owners), ensuring youthful energy is wasted on something irrelevant. In the case of Israel-Palestine, there’s contention over who the victims are. This is because what the system requires (sympathy for Israel) is at odds with what the system generally teaches: sympathy for poor brown people who are marginalized and colonized by white people. It strikes me that the system usually teaches this because it’s implicitly pro-immigration, helpful for getting middle class people not to care about demographic replacement or wage issues caused by tens of millions of illegal brown immigrants. But the propaganda values clash here, hence the schizophrenia of discourse.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
The Cooper Union event is interesting. It’s common for student protests to enter large faculty buildings or libraries. Are we supposed to believe that they “besieged” the library specifically to strike fear in the hearts of Jewish students that they knew were present? This is an enormous accusation that would require enormous evidence. Online it says Cooper Union is 25% Jewish, so there would be Jewish students everywhere, including present in the protest. From the short video being circulated, I see a Jewish student casually smiling saying “we locked them out”, to which another says “I’m fine with that”. That would indicate that a few Jewish students purposely locked them from entering the library, rather than that they were compelled to lock themselves in for fear of injury / harassment.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
What I would like to know (and currently do not) is whether there were British Anglicans who visited and/or worked at the hospital at the time of the blast. The Anglicans have put out official statements per above, and they most likely have consulted with the hospital workers they employ. But if there are British Anglicans who can testify “yes I saw *x bodies” that’s the best evidence we will get IMHO. For the record, I don’t think anyone should trust either Hamas or Israel/US assessments on casualties given the obvious conflict of interest. The question of whether we can trust the Palestinians who work in the hospital as doctors is a separate but interesting question, too.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
There was a blast in the inner courtyard of the hospital where patients, families, children, and women were sleeping. You are free, I suppose, to not consider this “the hospital has been bombed”. But it’s just as morally significant. And, of course, on the 15th an Israeli artillery strike did hit the hospital.
It’s true that we don’t know the precise death toll. I’m hoping that the hospital workers come out with an authoritative statement on that. The Anglicans who oversee the hospital confirm hundreds of mostly women and children have died however. So perhaps 200, perhaps as high as 400? We don’t know for sure.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
Fair point, it is my assertion or opinion that America / Israel routinely lie about intelligence regarding strikes, misfires, etc. Next time I’ll link to scholars who agree with my assertion and preface it as such.
single issue poster
Hmm, would you say someone who exclusively posts about D Day in a WWII thread to be “single issue”? Or the bombing of Nagasaki in a WWII thread? The hospital strike is the second most important event in the whole conflict, the first being the actual Hamas invasion. It was front page news for about four days and a major point of discussion. It’s entirely possible that this is the wrong forum to be discussing one of the two most important topics of the conflict, but that wouldn’t be because it’s not worthy of discussion. It would probably be for less rigid and more human reasons.
I can’t help but remember what you replied to me in my last post on this issue:
This strikes me as complete FUD. Every claim I've seen suggesting this was anything other than Hamas weaponry (whether as a false flag or just incompetence, who knows) appears primarily based on "but I want it to have been Israel, so let's imagine the possibilities, shall we?"
This was accusing me, or at least my information, as intentionally false. Then you aimed to build consensus with a “claims suggesting anything other than Hamas are primarily based around fantasy”. You didn’t provide any source, of course. But some of that information I posted has been reinforced by a major NYTimes piece.
More on the hospital blast. NYTimes Visual Investigations is now issuing a debunk on the supposed “lynchpin evidence” in the American and Israeli intelligence finding. A thread from NYT’s Aric Toler (previously Bellingcat) —
Israeli and U.S. intelligence officials believe that a projectile captured on videos shortly before the Ahli Arab Hospital explosion was a Palestinian rocket. nytimes Visual Investigations found that this object was launched from Israel, and likely unrelated to the deadly blast.
An IDF spokesperson went on CNN and the BBC with a printed-out screenshot from an Al Jazeera livestream showing this projectile, claiming it was the rocket that hit the hospital. We also believe that American officials are incorrectly assessing this to be a Palestinian rocket
this projectile launch from the north, south, east and west. By drawing lines of perspective, three of which can be seen here, we assessed that this project was launched from near the Israeli city of Nahal Oz.
Three days before the blast, a 155mm illumination shell, commonly used by the Israeli military and not in use by Palestinian militias, was fired into the Al-Ahli Hospital. Hospital administrators said that they had received warnings from the IDF telling them to evacuate.
Our analysis does not answer what actually did cause the blast or who was responsible, but it does undercut one of the most-publicized pieces of evidence used by both American and Israeli officials.
The NYTimes article is archived here: https://archive.ph/ngGpq
I hope we will eventually find out what caused the blast. This NYTimes article might wind up confirming my bias that we shouldn’t trust the immediate Israeli/American intel.* Interestingly, the NYTimes conclusion is based on a relatively obscure twitter thread by some random researcher on the 19th. So a +1 for twitter, I guess.
[edit + wording change*] small update, Le Monde agrees with the NYT assessment of the projectile.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
Most enjoyable documentary I’ve seen in a while
In the Highest Tradition, 1989, UK
First transmitted in 1989, this is the first episode in a six-part series that delves into the world of regimental tradition. This programme includes looks at the origins of Emperor Joseph Bonaparte's chamber pot, a druid oration, and the story of a goat who escaped being eaten to become a regimental mascot.
Are you sure you aren’t painting your ideological enemies as objectively immoral losers predestined to have bad lives — and who do not have sex — because these emotionally repulsive characteristics overpower the logical mind? Meaning you no longer need to do the dirty work of considering their line of reasoning or rebuffing their values?
I think people who share socially excommunicable things online have crossed a selection effect filter, and as such are not representative of the median case. Consider porn: despite the fact that 90% of young men watch porn, only the most deranged person online will like and share X-rated posts under their real name. The online presence of these people do not tell you the median life of a porn-viewer, which is decidedly median. This applies to a whole array of things. The people who pine for a white-only nation are either going to post anonymously somewhere, not post at all, or have given up on a normal social life and no longer care about anonymity.
But there are some ways to decipher what these people are like. The “leaders” of the movement who de-anonymize themselves range from run-of-the-mill (Jason Kessler) to the most accomplished you can be as a liberal arts student (Richard Spencer and Costin Alamariu). When Tucker Carlson’s writer Blake Neff was doxxed, and mind you he may have had the most influential job of any conservative writer in America, we learned that he would post racist trolls anonymously in his free time (“Black doods staying inside playing Call of Duty is probably one of the biggest factors keeping crime down”, this ridiculous kind of stuff).
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
What we are concerned about is the moral substance and not morally-irrelevant detail. The moral substance of burglarizing a home is greater than burglarizing a yard because the trespass violates a greater expectation of privacy and there is less of an element of temptation if something is not clearly visible. Okay… now, what’s the moral substance of attacking a hospital? That you are attacking something where innocent people gather, and where children feel safe in visiting to heal, and where vulnerable people are located. The moral substance doesn’t have to do with crumbing a wall or destroying equipment. As such, you don’t get to reduce the moral magnitude of attacking a hospital because it only took out vulnerable women and children who thought they were safe and who were looking to be healed, and didn’t cause damage to the equipment and facilities. (Hell, if we were concerned about equipment, we should ask how many hospitals worth of equipment have been kept from Palestinians due to the Israeli blockade. A separate matter, of course.)
That photo is frankly stupid. It doesn’t include the full grounds of the courtyard and ignores that many children (who are smaller) were sleeping there with their families — in war time. They’re not Scandinavians waiting for a bus stop.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
Read the thread. It’s disingenuous to imply that hitting the center courtyard where patients and families and refugees gather is not hitting the hospital. And the Anglicans also testify that Israel had hit the hospital on the 14th, and had told them four times to evacuate. And no, he’s not repeating Hamas lines (lol), he is in communication with the hospital leadership.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
The Anglicans / Episcopalians who run the hospital, who are far and away the most unbiased party in this conflict, talk about hundreds of women and children dead: https://twitter.com/sgcjerusalem/status/1714333560679580130. Richard Sewell, who oversees the hospitals, tweeted before the blast that there were thousands seeking shelter in the hospital.
You dont understand my take because you don’t know much about the attack. The courtyard of the hospital is part of the hospital, and this especially applies when the hospital is treated as a sanctuary where innocent people and bereaving families gather. The damage extended across the entire courtyard. Had the strike hit the actual hospital building, and the courtyard remained unscathed, the casualties would be less! Thousands were using the courtyard as a refuge, and to put that in perspective, at a different hospital (Shifa) there are 30,000 using it as a refuge. You can see the bodies of the dead children here.
Here’s a tweet from the day before the blast: https://twitter.com/fayez15479702/status/1714028862928039980
The Israeli army is demanding for the second time the evacuation of one of the largest hospitals in the Gaza Strip, as well as the evacuation of all citizens sleeping in the hospital courtyard who lost their homes to the bombs. the hospital teams categorically rejected it #Gaza
I’m sure we’ll have someone in the thread now to tell us, well, obviously this tweet is propaganda — because we all know that Hamas had actually planned this cleverly as an IRA-inspired car bomb attack! This is the settled narrative, everything else is antisemitic FUD, like Greta Thunberg’s octopus plushy.
[edit] Also, because this hasn’t been mentioned much, the same hospital was hit by Israel just three days before: https://twitter.com/JustinWelby/status/1713560288148996263
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
Because Israel was (and IMO still is) the most likely culprit given the blast size, the fact that they were bombing Gaza at the time, the fact that there have been tens of thousands of rockets fired and misfired by Hamas that never look like that blast size, and given Israel’s history of bombing health centers over the past 10 years. It’s actually amazing so far that they have managed to reverse the narrative entirely. But that’s why it’s important to see all the evidence of the event and consider it in full.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
I did, yes. I don’t recall there being casualties.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
My priors are completely opposite. Zionists have more influence over American news, business, and foreign policy than the Arab world.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
The sound of a jet corresponding to the hospital blast surely counts as moderate evidence in favor of an Israeli airstrike. The remnants of the intercepted rocket still being visible in the air post-blast is strong, novel evidence against the blast having to do with the intercepted rocket. It’s only ~72 hours after the event in question, so new information is not FUD. FUD would be if someone were to imply something like, “let’s not consider any new information, the previous narrative is just too compelling”.
Informative thread on the Hospital Blast
at 0:23 you can hear what sounds like an Israeli fighter jet in the background. It appears roughly 2 seconds before we see the explosion at the hospital and disappears at 0:30.
Airstrike Hypothesis: Pros - The main strength of this argument is the initial audio, due to its similarities with another IDF airstrike. Additionally, the strength of the impact/shockwave had the ability to launch a human body and a car into the air. Cons - The current shrapnel dispersion aligns with shrapnel from a projectile impacting the road, as more shrapnel fans upwards and out - but is obscured by the trees/cars. Windows in relatively close proximity are also not all destroyed.
Misfire Hypothesis: Pros - Depending on the type of rocket fired by Hamas/PIJ we could potentially get a similar sound of impact. Also, the crater location is directly next to where the victims were in the yard and the cars (with fuel) that moved -Crater size supports this.
Newly reached conclusion: Based on the audio of the explosion, the shrapnel dispersion, and the newly published video: Both the misfire hypothesis & the airstrike hypothesis hold equal weight. I will update this again after experts in the respective fields analyze these issues.
All around a highly informative thread by an (independent) Israeli researcher. Debunks some evidence and brings in new evidence — of particular note is a video that seems to confirm the sound of an Israeli jet. He disconfirms the interception hypothesis based on the sound of the projectile and the magnitude of the blast. His next post will apparently include evidence from Earshot.NGO which specializes in sonic analysis.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
I think we will only know the real casualty predictions at the end of the war
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
In a sentence: the end goal is for white people to behave and organize like proud Jews. If that occurs, the majority on the WN-spectrum would be happy. It would ensure the continuity of white people and their culture, stave off spiritually damaging criticism regarding privilege or historical ills, and ensure that white people have an accurate and positive self-image. There would be thousands of advocacy groups that would be quick to dispel “tired euphobic canards” wherever they appear.
“End goal” is a different question than “how to”. You’re kind of blending the two together. That’s the “end goal”, but naturally a lot of people have different views on implementation.
coffee_enjoyer
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1yr ago
IMO the best thing for Democrats, and for the Biden family, would be if such a thing does occur. They would be giving martyr status to a lukewarm President who will likely have dementia within a few years. It would instantly redeem the image of the Biden family. At the same time, it would allow the US and Israel to do whatever they want to Hamas and Hezbollah.
Actually if I were Biden’s handlers I would be much more afraid of Israel doing a JFK and blaming it on Hezbollah.
From the UN’s OCHA: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/education-undermined-deteriorating-humanitarian-situation-gaza
There was a 30% dropout rate in 2017.
On malnutrition, UNICEF says “According to recent national surveys, Palestinians are facing a double burden of malnutrition; malnutrition, a high level of micronutrient deficiencies, and increasing obesity rates.”
So now you send me your sources and we can discuss?
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