faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
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User ID: 884
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
The Constitution is dead. America is dead.
Man, fuck that noise. America is the best country. We have problems, but there's nowhere else in the world I'd rather be. The whole reason this thread exists in the first place is that America is a great place and too many people want to live here.
I am beginning to wonder if patriotism is going to flip towards being blue coded, it sure seems to be trending that way.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Where are you seeing the sealed documents? I see some paywalled ones that haven't yet been added to RECAP but nothing before Sep 30. Am I looking in the wrong place?
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Looking at foreign-born fraction, I see
- Birmingham AL: 4.36% foreign-born
- St Louis MO: 6.47% foreign-born
- Memphis TN: 7.38% foreign-born
- Baltimore MD: 8.67% foreign-born
- Detroit MI: 5.87% foreign-born
For reference 13.8% of all US residents are foreign-born by the same metric. If you're going to Notice things about the populations of those cities, the things you notice are not going to be immigration-related.
Unless you're saying the hispanic people have a sense of racial solidarity with other minorities, to which I have to ask whether you've ever talked to a mexican person because they are usually second only to indians in expressed racism.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Temperature check: do you think ICE should do whatever it takes to accomplish their goals, even when those goals involve behavior which is clearly unlawful, as long as they mostly limit unlawful behavior to people who are in the country illegally? If your answer is "yes", I'm not sure how productive of a conversation we can have here.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Top 5 are Memphis TN, Oakland CA, St Louis MO, Little Rock AR, Tacoma WA. Oakland is the only one of those I particularly associate with immigrants. Also I don't really like the methodology of weighting larceny equal to murder. Looking at murder rate alone which is harder to fudge the top 5 are Birmingham AL, St Louis MO, Memphis TN, Baltimore MD, Detroit MI. Larceny theft alone does put Oakland and Portland near the top, which tracks.
Regardless, the "immigrants specifically make cities bad to live in" hypothesis doesn't seem particularly reflective of reality.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Right, and this is why the cities with the largest foreign-born fraction (Miami, San Jose, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco) are the poorest, most crime-ridden cities in the country, while the cities containing the lowest fraction of foreign-born Americans (Detroit, Louisville, Memphis, Indianapolis, Oklahoma City) are beacons of safety and prosperity.
On the one hand, selection effects are absolutely a thing, and will explain at least some of that trend. On the other hand it sure doesn't look to me like foreigners turn cities into ethnic spoils engines, except to the extent that they make cities wealthy and some of that wealth goes to spoils.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Before 3 happens you get "the price of food rises enough that the voters get unhappy, and unhappy voters are bad for reelection chances".
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Because they're posting videos from their own raids, and those videos get lots of engagement, and the reactions to the videos that ICE posts is largely in line with what you'd expect given what footage ICE chooses to show and how they choose to show it.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Does this rule apply to any other political cause?
Yes? Is this a trick question? It looks like people here were pretty close to universal in saying the ATF was incompetent, malicious, or most likely both here.
For some reason, the cherrypicked image of his ventilated skull wasn't a cause celebre nor a moment for deep retroflection on the costs of a cause
Yeah, it is an unfortunate truth that "someone did an unambiguously terrible thing and now the world is worse :(" doesn't get nearly as much engagement as "someone did a thing, maybe it's very bad, maybe it's not so bad, but everyone has an opinion and thinks anyone who disagrees with them is an evil mutant".
Perhaps there are clear examples of immigration enforcement that weren't cause celebres for the Left?
Yeah, almost all of them. In (to pick an arbitrary Biden year) 2022, ICE deported about 70,000 people. Not more than a handful of those people were cause celebres. Likewise in 2018 (to pick an arbitrary Trump 1 year), and likewise this year.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Is it the left that's posting videos of these raids? I seem to recall with the Hyundai plant raid that it was ICE themselves that released that video. They're definitely being intentional in their choice of optics within the video, at least.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
I have plenty of complaints about the conduct of ICE but the legitimacy of their official mission seems fine? Even if you think having open borders is a moral imperative the US is clearly not set up to support flipping a switch from 0 to 100% on that without lead time.
Unless this is bait, in which case can you please not or at least choose better bait?
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
You can look at the court filings yourself. Looks like a travesty to me. Discussed in more detail here.
And yeah having some travesties is unsurprising. The surprising thing to me is that someone is claiming that everyone detained can be looked up on a public website. "Everyone" is quite a high bar.
Ok sure people are being held without charges for over a month and barred from meeting privately with legal counsel, and the tool linked upthread to find detainees wouldn't work for family members to find them, but that's not at the point where they've actually been fully "disappeared". It goes quite a bit beyond "arresting" but you're right that I shouldn't use the term "disappeared" until we have good evidence of people being kidnapped by ICE and never being seen again.
That said, talk about damning with faint praise! "This agency isn't quite literally disappearing people" is not the best defense I want to hear about the law enforcement agencies in my country.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
You wanna bring receipts on that for this case? I can bring them for the proceedings leading up to the TRO, and I see nothing like that mentioned.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Or they get rid of the filibuster.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
The habeas corpus petition was filed on September 30. He was detained on August 27. That's a solid month. How long do you think is appropriate to hold someone without charging them?
On September 17th, 3 weeks after he was first detained, CBP informed him that they still hadn't assigned him an A-number - so
- the ICE locator mentioned upthread wouldn't show him by his name
- the ICE locator mentioned upthread wouldn't show him by a-number because one had not been assigned
My non expert reading is that the judge is pissed at a level that is not normal. From the temporary restraining order
There is generally no public interest in the perpetuation of unlawful agency action. To the contrary, there is a substantial public interest ‘in having governmental agencies abide by the federal laws that govern their existence and operations.
And looks like she's expecting malicious compliance from ICE as well
To be clear, Respondents must not remove Petitioner from the hospital, cause his discharge before his medical team deems it medically appropriate, or require his in-person appearance before an immigration officer prior to his discharge from the hospital. Rather, the Court orders that guards be withdrawn from Petitioner’s hospital room, that restrictions on his activities be lifted (including his ability to make telephone calls to family and friends and to confer confidentially with counsel outside the presence of ICE agents), and that any physical restraints, such as handcuffs, be removed.
This guy had 2-4 guards posted 24/7 for over a month. Someone high up signed off on this, this can't be written off as a single agent acting alone. Seems pretty egregious to me..
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
When the NKVD showed up at your apartment in the dead of night and took you away, nobody saw or heard you again. That was proper disappearing!
Ok, I admit I don't have any documented examples of people being disappeared without a trace by ICE and never heard from again. I don't think things have to get to the point of "literally as bad as the NKVD" for us to go "wait a second this is not good and I want to see less of this" though.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
Q: What should employers do if an immigration enforcement agent seeks to enter the employer’s place of business?
A: Employers, or persons acting on behalf of the employer, shall not provide “voluntary consent” to the entry of an immigration enforcement agent to “any nonpublic areas of a place of labor.”
This provision does not apply if the agent enters a nonpublic area without the consent of the employer or other person in control of the place of labor or if the immigration enforcement agent presents a judicial warrant. In addition, employers are not precluded from taking an agent to a nonpublic area if all of the following are met: (1) employees are not present in the nonpublic area; (2) the agent is taken to the nonpublic area for the purpose of verifying whether the agent has a judicial warrant; and (3) no consent to search the nonpublic area is given in the process.
See Government Code Section 7285.1.Q: What does it mean to provide “voluntary” consent to the entry of an immigration enforcement agent?
In general, for consent to be voluntary, it should not be the result of duress or coercion, either express or implied.
An example of providing “voluntary” consent to enter a nonpublic area could be freely asking or inviting an immigration enforcement agent to enter that area. This could be indicated by words and/or by the act of freely opening doors to that area for the agent, for instance.
Whether or not voluntary consent was given by the employer is a factual, case-by-case determination that will be made based on the totality of circumstances in each specific situation.
This law does not require physically blocking or physically interfering with the entry of an immigration enforcement agent in order to show that voluntary consent was not provided.Q: What should employers do if an immigration enforcement agent tries to access, review, or obtain employee records?
A: Employers, or persons acting on behalf of the employer, shall not provide “voluntary consent” to an immigration enforcement agent “to access, review, or obtain the employer’s employee records.” This provision does not apply if the agent accesses, reviews, or obtains employee records without the consent of the employer or other person in control of the place of labor. In addition, exceptions to this provision apply if: • The immigration enforcement agent provides a subpoena for the employee records; or • The agent provides a judicial warrant for the employee records; or • The employee records accessed, reviewed, or obtained by the immigration enforcement agent are I-9 Employment Eligibility Verification forms and other documents that are requested in a Notice of Inspection issued under federal law.Q: Does AB 450 require employers to defy federal requirements?
A: No. Compliance with AB 450 does not compel any employer to violate federal law. Rather, it may require employers in some instances to decline requests for voluntary cooperation by federal agents. However, the statute makes clear that its provisions only apply “[e]xcept as otherwise required by federal law” and do not restrict or limit an employer’s compliance with any memorandum of understanding governing use of the federal E-Verify system.
That, again, seems fine? My impression is that the stuff about voluntary vs involuntary search is that it mainly has to do with what evidence is admissible in court - law enforcement agents are going to be able to go where they want whether or not your cooperation is voluntary.
And in terms of documents, documents that are actually relevant to work eligibility are already covered as things that employers should cooperate with if there's an administrative warrant. My understanding is that what you can't do is hand over the Workday login to ICE and invite them to go on a fishing expedition unless you are compelled to do so.
All that said I am not a lawyer, maybe I'm reading the law wrong? ChatGPT agrees with my interpretation when I ask it, but it also agrees with your interpretation when I ask it.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
A federal judge has ordered U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to temporarily end round-the-clock surveillance of a man hospitalized with a broken leg he suffered during his arrest [...] The man, who suffered a broken leg while being arrested in California on August 27, had been detained for more than 37 days [...] To date, ICE has not placed petitioner in removal proceedings, charged him with violating immigration law, set bond, issued a Notice to Appear or otherwise processed him [...] The man, registered by ICE with the pseudonym “Har Maine UNK Thirteen,” was arrested by Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers at the Carson Car Wash in Carson, California, on August 27
So ICE arrested someone, detained him for 37 days in the hospital under armed guard, did not charge him with anything, denied him legal counsel, and used a pseudonym when registering him in the locator. That sure sounds to me like "ICE disappeared that guy".
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2mo ago
E-Verify is also old enough to vote. It's just not mandatory at the federal level. It is mandatory in some states, so it's not like it's a half-baked system which wouldn't work at scale. It exists, and it works in practice, but it's still not mandatory everywhere. As far as I can tell nothing is preventing Congress from passing a law to make it mandatory, other than "congress has decided it no longer needs to do its job".
Anyway, I'm looking at the examples you gave:
- Illinois SB0508 - this... just looks like it's saying "employers who use E-verify still have to comply with all other relevant employment law"? Is there a particular part of this you object to? Maybe the bit which says "An employer shall ensure that the System is not used for any purpose other than employment verification of newly hired employees and shall ensure that the information contained in the System and the means of access to the System are not disseminated to any person other than employees who need such information" - is your objection that actually Illinois should allow E-verify to be used for employment verification of existing employees as well?
- California AB 450 QA - As far as I can tell, this says "Employers shall not voluntarily and actively assist immigration officials in accessing areas which are closed to the public, or actively provide records to immigration officials, unless those immigration officials have a warrant or subpoena. If immigration officials insist anyway employers have no obligation to try to stop them". That seems fine and very much in line with other regulations in California, e.g. CA Civ Code § 56.10 which says "A provider of health care, health care service plan, or contractor shall not disclose medical information regarding a patient of the provider of health care or an enrollee or subscriber of a health care service plan without first obtaining an authorization, except as provided in subdivision (b) or (c)" and subdivisions (b) and (c) are basically "(b) there's a warrant or equivalent" or "(c) the information is being disclosed to the insurer / other parts of the medical system". I like this law. Law enforcement agents should need either a warrant or reasonable suspicion - I don't like fishing expeditions by law enforcement, and this law seems to specifically prohibit employers from assisting in fishing expeditions where there is no warrant and no probable cause.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
3mo ago
there is no reason to believe that any other plausible method would deliver better results.
This is factually false. E-verify is a thing. If you want to stop people who are not authorized to work from working, then mandating that employers actually check that their employees are authorized to work for them seems like an obvious step to take.
If you haven't even taken the step of mandating the use of e-verify for all employers, I don't believe you when you say "but we have to disappear people, it's the only strategy that could possibly work".
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
3mo ago
Ah, I misunderstood you then - I thought you were proposing throwing out the principle of charity for quantumfreakonomics because you thought their post was not a realistic level of naivety and thus must be bad faith.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
3mo ago
Are you proposing being uncharitable to Jay Jones or to other people on this forum? I don't think principle of charity ever said you had to be charitable about statements made by public figures, just about the person you are currently arguing with.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
3mo ago
Truth social is over thataway if you would like somewhere you can post without worrying about discourse norms.
I agree with this, particularly the ones in those videos. I just disagree that "better than the worst protestors" is the standard we should be aiming for.
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