self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
I'm a transhumanist doctor. In a better world, I wouldn't need to add that as a qualifier to plain old "doctor". It would be taken as granted for someone in the profession of saving lives.
At any rate, I intend to live forever or die trying. See you at Heat Death!
Friends:
A friend to everyone is a friend to no one.
User ID: 454
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
Huge numbers? I don't think so, I was in the country and our media is not so compromised that this would have gone unnoticed. Maybe a few hundred people at most in a country of billions, and I'd be surprised if the numbers were that high. India is poor, but not so poor that people regularly starve to death with no recourse, not even during a pandemic.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
This was in part a bait post for the thoughts of local enthusiast and medicine man, cheers
Very good bait. Reminds me of the time this hot Romanian chick slept with me so that her brothers could rob my house. It was so convincing I succumbed to impulse on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. I keep her on speed dial just in case I need some decluterring. Please keep baiting me, some fish are hungry and never learn, and the bait is often delicious.
Eh, personal identity is, as the name suggests, highly personal. I'm just not particularly wedded to my human body, it's nice, but could do with a few million upgrades. If biological immortality is an option, I wouldn't be too averse to staying recognizably human for a while, even if it's not my ultimate preference.
Did I infer correctly that Nectome's crosslinking method is intended for the simulator end game, and fundamentally further or mutually exclusive with the "maybe someday medicine gets really good" revival hope of traditional cryo? The LW discussion didn't seem to talk about it as a pivot. I guess if you're in the market for cryo it's more like hedging and that's why it is presented and discussed this way.
It's an open question. It really depends on the state of medicine and chemistry when there's any scope for a revival. I suspect that it will be incredibly difficult to undo the changes at a molecular/cellular level while also regenerating tissue. I'd be so bold as to say that scanning and uploading might even be an easier or an earlier option, but don't mistake my take for an authoritative one. I would be happy with either option, they both beat being dead by a margin large enough to pass for infinity.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
Not as familiar with them as I am with Alcor and now Nectome, but I've heard of them. It's just good to have legitimate options other than Alcor, albeit the options are scantier in the UK and nonexistent in India. I keep a finger on the pulse, cryonics is great for those at serious risk of death in a decade or two, just less pressing for me
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
6hr ago
I'm not saying I like them, but now that I think about it, the examples that Google turns up are rare. I think I've only seen one dude with perfect pearly whites with even edges in my entire time up there.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
7hr ago
I was really struggling to figure out what possibly could be the context behind you replying to me with "turkey teeth?". Did you mean teeth done in Turkey (and not teeth on a literal turkey)? Yup, that's common enough, but I don't find overly white teeth repulsive. Hell, I've been accused of/admired for getting my teeth done there. Brits really can't deny the stereotype here, I just have decent teeth without taking especially good care of them.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
7hr ago
I think Clavicular is a very handsome dude, even from my perspective as a very straight (and not remotely as handsome) man. I have little doubt that most women would go for him, he's Henry Caville-lite, which is quite up there. That being said, I suppose that his antics turn away a large number of women, but you don't need to appeal to everyone to be overwhelmed by attention from the opposite sex.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
7hr ago
Taking notes, but substitute transhumanism for communism. Unfortunately, I don't happen to have $250m to spare, but I can manage something at a dive bar and bribe the local bar bunnies to show up.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
7hr ago
I'd invest all the money in tech, focusing on AI companies. Look, AGI is our best for fully-automated luxury space communism (with optional homosexuality), if we don't have that, then communism ain't for me.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
8hr ago
Thanks for sharing, and for the advice! I remain very glad for everyone who came here and shared both advice and support. It's good to know that my situation is far from unique, even if I already knew that on an intellectual level.
I've seen this pattern with high agency people. The more they care about something, the more effort they want to put into fixing it. To them, everything is a problem that can be solved. Find a problem, break it down, chip at it, repeat until solved. It's horrifying to learn that there will be problems that both keep them up at night and they can't do anything to solve. But yeah, end of they day, it's is someone else's life. It becomes intrusive, real fast.
I am pleased to have been mistaken for a high agency individual. Medium agency? Now I can accept that, haha. But yes, my instinct to show care manifests as trying to solve problems for those I care about. But I am, somewhat fortunately, more emotionally aware (and less autistic) than the average man, I'm pretty solid at just... being there. Hearing people out. Being a shoulder to cry on. Talking things through. None of my exes have ever called me emotionally unavailable.
I think my brother genuinely needs both forms of help. I was sensible, and first declared my very real desire to provide unconditional support while telling him I loved him, and that nothing he says or does could change that, let alone something as... unimportant as being gay. Then I asked him about his future and helped him brainstorm ways to make it happen. If he needs my heart or my head, I've got him covered.
If it wasn't obvious already, for reasons, I've became a surrogate father of sorts, and am struggling to separate myself as my brother comes of age. Your sibling relationship may not be the same as mine, so YMMV
Not quite the same dynamic here. My brother has most of his life together, barring the academics. I have my shit together when it comes to studying, but there are certain aspects of being an independent, functional individual that I struggle with. It's a work in progress. I scold him for not studying enough, he yells at me for being a slob and not doing {many things}. We don't mind, our dad is good at being a dad for the both of us. Our relationship is pretty close to the norm for siblings, at least siblings in a happy family.
I'm glad your girlfriend did you a solid here, God knows some men really need a few nudges from women to do certain things they really ought to. Been there myself.
On personalities of gay men - Anecdotally, I found that many less-flamboyant & monogamous gay men come out of STEM. Not sure why, maybe it's just the general introversion and fixation of things over people. But yeah, if he's in Mumbai, then breaking into those circles may help him find that kind of guy.
Agreed. STEM gay men tend to be more reserved, masculine or... autistic. Even the ones who become trans don't act in the manner of a catty gay man or a twink. God knows I'd lose my hair if I was into twinks, they're like women but with the drama dials turned all the way up, generally speaking.
On non-monogamy - My girlfriend's best friend is a married gay-man living the idyllic suburban life, with selective non-monogamy. From the sounds of it, it's closer to being swingers than the kind of eyes-wide-shut reputation that the media associates with gay men. Non-monogamy is a spectrum, of sorts.
My brother really seems to be set on actual monogamy, not even the grey area that is swinging, let alone a paper marriage. Good for him, God knows that while I don't cheat, I am sometimes chafed by the constraints of a serious relationship. I wish it were easier for me to fall for a single person and never feel discomfort or desire for others. But I manage fine, and if he's like me in that regard, I hope he finds a like-minded person. I just regret that gay men are overwhelmingly unlikely to be as-into commitment and exclusivity as the average woman.
Thank you again, this was very helpful!
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
8hr ago
Driving exams? Flight certs? Medical training? The Bar?
You are conveniently eliding the fact that the current system has its own mountain of skulls.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
8hr ago
I am grateful for you taking the time to share your experience and thoughts, but I have strong reservations on how far your arguments generalize.
Straight men (or women) are both heterogeneous and heterosexual. I have very reason to assume that gay men are just as heterogeneous, if not heterosexual.
Sticking to the generally accepted taxonomy: we've got bears, twinks and everything in between. Some gay men want more masculine partners, others are attracted by some degree of femininity in their (male) lovers. Many/most do not see the strengths or desirable traits present in their partners as a form of weakness in themselves.
I would love to marry a woman who is smarter, more focused and more driven than me. I would not let that make me feel insecure or believe that I'm dumb. I rarely meet women who are more rational or logical than I am, because I already consider myself well above average on that front even by male standards - but if I did, I would like that.
My brother is perfectly masculine, even by straight standards. He likes masculine partners too, not dramatic twinks. So be it, he hasn't displayed any degree of insecurity that I would consider abnormal or concerning. He's sometimes a little insecure that I'm more academically talented than he is, and I'm sometimes insecure when comparing how well he has other aspects of his life put together, and how handsome he is (as I've already noted). That is normal, even expected among siblings.
He doesn't go around judging himself in an unhealthy way. He has said or done nothing that would preclude a normal, happy life in the most important sense.
In homosexuality you find no comfort in this way. If your partner is more masculine than you are, is bigger and stronger and braver, you can only see in yourself someone less masculine and less big and strong and brave. If your partner is less masculine than you are, you can see yourself as bigger stronger and braver than him, but it is at the expense of your partner's ego.
I genuinely doubt that this is anywhere near as big a deal as you make it out to be. I don't say this as an insult, you might feel justified in your stance, but it doesn't align with the experiences shared with me by other gay men or even people replying in the comments.
I've had plenty of shitty relationships with women, and seen even more around. It is not as simple as saying that straight men are innately more satisfied in their relationships with women. Sometimes, people can and do love each other despite their insecurities and sense of competition.
Thank you nonetheless, I'll think over it, even if I think that your concerns are (probably) not applicable to my brother. He's my little brother, I know him, even if I just found it's not as well as either of us would have liked. But sexuality means little when I consider everything else. I don't/can't "fix" him, but I am prepared to do what I can to make his life easier, and I can't ask for more even from myself.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
17hr ago
You didn't specify if it had to be my dick, so I'll point you to Google and donate the proceeds to charity. Probably a charity for autism, that's the right call.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
17hr ago
I see enough lip filler in the UK to fill a swimming pool. God, don't get me started on the jaundice-tier bronzing and fake tans.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
17hr ago
The point is that tattoos are, in fact, normalized and a far less reliable sign of dysfunction than they once were. The most basic bitch people get them, albeit if you see full sleeves and facial tattoos, I'd be cautious. The association with impulsivity and poor decision making, while very much real, also doesn't matter if you are able to apply basic judgement to behavior and context. I'd date and marry women with tattoos, at least tasteful ones.
Wait, I thought that was a plastic plant. Oh dear.
I also noticed that the dog went missing from the last time I took over, please tell me she's boarded somewhere pleasant and not roaming the streets looking for more roadkill lasagna.
And I put up those sticky notes for nothing, let alone the permanent marker on our skin. Just don't break anything, and the dog wasn't too sick. With the rate we're replacing houseplants, we've got to work on cutting down veterinary expenses.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
17hr ago
That is a recent development. When I first learned about cryonics, I didn't expect AGI to be nearly as imminent or realistic as a possibility.
It's the bigger mammals that are the real headache. If we pull it off with monkeys, I'll care a great deal. If they do it for apes, then I'm an ape too and I'm going to sign up immediately unless it's ridiculously expensive. I earn enough these days that I could, in theory, afford Nectome. One small thing to be grateful for.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
17hr ago
Other than what @wemptronics said, AGI/ASI is looking rather likely, especially if you're already dead and frozen and thus not in a hurry. If they can't help us solve the problem, it's probably not solvable.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
17hr ago
Help mom, LessWrong is leaking and not just because of AI. No, don't worry, I love to see it. I love The Motte, but I wish it drifted more towards more central Rationalist pastures.
Anyway. I've been following this, and I'm somewhere between attentive and cautiously optimistic. The founders know their stuff, and have been quite upfront of what exactly they can offer and what it requires. The effective necessity of MAID doesn't bother me at all. If you die traumatically, the odds that standard approaches can preserve you enough to reconstruct with high fidelity is... low.
A decade ago, I would have told you I'd sign up for cryonics the first opportunity I got. But things have changed. AGI will either substantially change the trajectory of technological development in an upward direction, or kill us in a manner that precludes cryonics mattering. I assign rather little probability mass to things in between. It's not worth discussing rn, even if Things Continue As Usual is not impossible.
But now? If AGI doesn't show up within 10 years, I'll consider it again. Not in 20? I'll be signing up immediately. Right now, I have better things to do with my money, and that includes hedging for disruption in the near future. That includes most of my loved ones, even if my grandpa would never consent and it's not practical to do it in India. I regret this immensely.
With so many sci-fi fantasies filling up the horizon, why not kill yourself and wait awhile? What did you think transhumanism meant, anyway? vibes? papers? essays?
I mean, I admire the attitude, but I do think that immortality doesn't necessarily involve killing ourselves to attain. "Mere" biological mortality is a possibility. I say this, while being willing to destructively scan my brain and upload my mind into a computer the moment it's viable, validated and safe. Whatever, it's my sense of identity and willingness to subscribe to substrate-independent theories of consciousness. I would prefer non-destructive scans if they were an option, and might even wait if I didn't expect to die before it was a reality.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
18hr ago
You're telling me I could have been getting paid this whole time? BRB, I need to renegotiate for more Drama Coins. Or start a union.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
18hr ago
But I'll just push that one point: how many people ended up as 'mentally ill homeless' because there wasn't an intervention earlier on in their life to keep them on a more productive track?
I'd have to look that up instead of guessing, but I expect it's substantial. That's assuming that "interventions" include the forceful or consensual use of psychiatric intervention. The outcomes for schizophrenia and bipolar after treatment, while not as great as I'd like, significantly beats going untreated.
By the time people have exhausted their social safety net and have ended up on the streets, it's often too late to restore them to functionality. At that point? It's an asylum or bust. Perhaps @Throwaway05 might have a better understanding the conditions in the US, I'm being general here.
Although its most likely that there was some pre-existing mental condition that explains both that outcome and why they tried sex work in the first place.
If sex work is a legitimately bad idea for the majority of people (which I think is true), then the people who still opt for it will tend towards being stupid, impulsive or mentally ill. But I do not think that is a permanent, irrevocable fact that is impervious to change in attitudes. A world where most women and men think OF is fine will have more normal people working in it.
Think of how tattoos used to be a strong sign of criminality, and how you can see grandpas and yuppies flaunting them in public. Circumstances and attitudes change.
I have seen some cases of women who go into that line of work and it seemingly crushes their spirits, collapses their social networks, and ultimately puts them in an emotional condition that wrecks their ability to maintain a romantic connection. I think this impact is at least on the order of that of getting addicted to a hard drug, although it is probably easier to recover if you have support.
I'm not saying they can't be compared, I think you can usefully compare apples and oranges (it's such a dumb metaphor). But this is an empirical question, and one I'm not ready to research at 2 am. If you have evidence to the contrary, do share and I promise to take a look later!
(Hard drugs also encompass a wide range of drugs, some of them MUCH worse for you)
(Lets be fair, I also DESPISE Multi-level marketing schemes and would love to nuke those from orbit, and would take measures to keep my kids from falling into that trap too, although I'd like to think my kids would know the math well enough to see why those won't work.) OF has many of the same aspects as MLMs when you look at how it works in practice, but you're burning up more than just your time and money if you try to take it seriously.
If a grown child of mine is dumb enough to fall for an MLM, then I'd disown them on principle. Seriously, I might give them myopia, depressive tendencies or ADHD, but I refuse to take responsibility for stupidity. Blame their mom instead.
Yep, good to point out where we are different in our beliefs so the others don't catch on LOL.
You know we can't sell it if you keep breaking character right? I knew that inducing DID with heroic doses of ketamine wasn't the best idea, but I didn't think you'd be quite so fractious. Fine, once I'm asleep you can take over our advocacy, just remember to water the succulent and throw out the trash. If you keep being lazy, I will take the antipsychotics like I threatened.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
18hr ago
One that the may not be obvious to you, or to even him yet, is that coming out is a process, and one that never ends, and for a wide variety of people, it's going to be more painful to be 'honest' everywhere than just being themselves. Coming out to you is a step, coming out to your mom if he does is another step. Even if you broadcast it from a megaphone while doing the full Folsome Street Fair on main street, there will still be people the next day you have to decide whether you need or want to come out to.
My brother is fast asleep, so I can't quite ask him right now, but I think that even just having close family and friends know the truth would be enough to provide him contentment. He's not the kind of person to agonize over what random acquaintances or distant relatives think, and neither am I.
Sure, there might be times when he struggles to decide whether his sexuality needs disclosure, but I don't think it'll bother him too much.
I'll second other people saying that, especially if they were meant in good spirits, I'd rather people make jokes rather than walk on eggshells. It is kinda funny! It is something that's not really ever going to make 'sense' at a deep level to you! Just throw some self-deprecatory signs hitting your team too, accept a few jokes going your way, and it's how family should treat each other.
Thank you. After several people reassured me that they personally didn't mind, I'm over my (minor) worries. It made a big difference that my own brother straight up acknowledged that he didn't mind and didn't want me to change. I wish that had been enough to make me entirely sanguine, it almost was, and if he's happy why should I care what anyone else says?
That's... a difficult situation, and if it helps, give him my sympathies as someone who's had to make decisions around (lighter) variants of the same problems. A lot of the answers are going to depend both on what he's willing to do, what risk (and what kinds of risks!) he's willing to accept, and how much his biology is going to fight with him. I'll avoid repeating the obvious 'try to have it all' stuff or diving into useless esoteric options (eg: just find a trans guy who wants to get knocked up who cares whether that'd even work for him), but a few unintuitive options:
Agreed. He's a sensible young man, and has his own strengths. I respect his ability to figure out his own goals and needs, while being committed to supporting him all the way through.
Anyway, this conversation made me emotional, so I went and woke him up just to say I love him. You really can't say that often enough, in my experience, and regret never feels good.
There are women who you don't have to trick. For a fujoshi or a woman with a very low sex drive, a closed-relationship-focused gay guy can be an even more-desirable-than-normal catch. Sometimes that's a lavender marriage (yes, there are lesbian fujoshi), but sometimes it's just what works for people. Doesn't even have to be a lie; you can honestly say that you married for the sake of kids, but you're great friends: then people who need to know can know and those who don't can decide what they want to believe. This has some good options on having biological children, if some that might make for a few uncomfortable discussions and maybe a bit of a boner-killer moment. There's levels of gay where the flesh might be unwilling but there's no mental objection (or even fingers that might be willing to put in the hard work when required), and on the other side, my brother turned down a threesome he really wanted because the third's girlfriend wanted in the room fully clothed. If your brother's toward the latter end, this probably won't work well even if the woman in questions swears she's lesbian or asexual. On the upside, if you don't particularly care about a woman's appearance, you get to select for personality, and there's a lot of diamonds in the rough.
Good thing he knows literal fujoshis in his circle of acquaintances, and probably friends. You could well be right that someone might consider this setup their dream. And worst case, my family are gynecologists and he might become one. We can pull out the ol' family turkey-baster as and when needed. Intra-uterine insemination is easy enough, any Tom, Dick and Harry can pull it off.
He's young. There's time to explore plenty of options, and I'm grateful for that. I'd be much sadder if, say, he'd only spoken up a decade later. Or whispered it to me on my death bed.
I do not quite feel ready to explore the true limits of his attraction to women, but I know it's very limited. Who knows, maybe from the rear any ass is grass and he's willing to mow the lawn. A sufficiently high dose of viagra could make someone screw a corpse, or at least hard enough to make it a technical possibility.
(Out of curiosity, do lesbian fujoshi consume yaoi, or just yuri?)
if you don't particularly care about a woman's appearance, you get to select for personality, and there's a lot of diamonds in the rough.
Call me shallow, but ain't setting my brother up with any uggo, be they man or woman. He deserves better haha. Although I must admit that I have learned the hard way that an unpleasant personality can easily overpower the allure of a pretty face.
I kinda went down a rabbit hole looking up what you meant by "unicorn". It seems I am not as terminally online or up to date with gay culture as I imagined. Huh. I guess I see the appeal?
and harder than you'd expect. Having a partner that only exists through a VOIP call 300+ days a year sucks when you need a human touch, don't get me wrong, and I know more than one LDR that got really rough when the two long-time lovebirds found that they were only sexually compatible at a keyboard. You have a lot more space to select from, though, and a lot more people trying this stuff care about longer-term relationships to begin with. It's also easier to stay closeted (at least in meatspace), and a lot more compatible with a number of home obligations. On the gripping hand, though, this can turn into a massive psychological pressure such it feels like immigration to the LDR's homeland or emigration of the LDR Will Fix Everything, and that's both not true and can lead to bad decision-making with regret.
I don't want to go into too much detail, but even during their intern year, his BF did some regrettable things because of "loneliness", and that's just a month or two of not seeing each other.
I don't think I can make an LDR work, from some experience, but my brother hasn't really tried. Who knows, maybe he'll change his mind. I just don't think a bi, severely conflicted man is the right choice, even if I like him myself.
I see you also mean other LDRs, and sure, I guess if he does meet someone as appealing, I think he might give it a good shout.
Be a good sounding board. Especially if he doesn't have many meatspace gay friends separate from his boyfriend, it's very easy for a guy to go quite literally nuts as they stew over hard decisions without any external grounding (or falling down the /r/relationships or LLM rabbit hole for said external grounding, which will quite happily work toward driving you even more nuts). It's a really bad situation to be in, and I'm not exaggerating or hyperbolizing when I talk about this like going crazy. Having someone you can be out to, even if they can't empathize fully with a specific problem, as long as they're going to be honest and serious and open-minded about a choice, helps a ton at not getting unmoored or badly fixated.
Hey, he's my brother. He's going to Claude and not ChatGPT if he absolutely must use an LLM for life advice. Jokes aside, I do intend to be there for him, and after @reo 's nudging, I intend to be proactive about it. I found out many things last night, and not just that he's gay. He loves me to a degree that makes my heart ache, and I didn't quite know it. If he can't count on me, what does being my little brother even mean?
And that's going to be uncomfortable at times! I'm bi, and I still absolutely know more of my brother's preferences than I ever wanted to know. The watersports joke is not the worst of all possible worlds. It's still better than having family who can't tell if they're obsessing over someone.
I absolutely don't want to watch. Not even think about it the details really, but to be fair that's more to do with me being straight than a prude or homophobe. I'm the kind of guy who skips ahead when a porno decides to zoom in on the guy's face or his cock. Who decided that's a good idea??
Anyway. I wanted to say that I'm very grateful. You're tied with Reo for people who, by themselves, made this cry for help worth it. I'll pass it all along, thank you so much.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
18hr ago
Quite possibly, but I pride myself on being an internally coherent and consistent person, and I definitely can't empathize with such... hypocrisy? Incoherence? I don't know.
Sure, I can understand it in an intellectual manner, but it's like intentionally seeking out fentanyl without external pressure and then shooting your dealer for selling to you. Sure, it's a bad idea, but this hypothetical (and hopefully fictional) person is being a bit silly. The dealer, at least here, didn't force them to buy it. If you hate pornstars, not jerking off is an option, and if that doesn't work, we can give your SSRIs for hypersexuality.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
18hr ago
I'm gathering that you're ultimately fine with full on Social and Natural Darwinism for deciding punishments and outcomes for risky behavior... but there's a certain amount of nuance when it comes to your own progeny.
Full on? Definitely not. I'd rather we make everyone smarter and saner instead, and I think that is a real option. I see several Fix Everything switches if I look around. Nuclear power, an end to NIMBYism, institutionalization of the mentally ill homeless (I have a US bias, some places don't have Fix Everything switches).
But time and money and effort are not in nigh-infinite abundance today. I prescribe policy that works the best for the world as it is, at least as I see it, not some kind of AGI-having post scarcity utopia. There are a lot of people who make everyone strictly worse off for reasons that can't be easily fixed or excused by circumstances completely out of their control. I think we can be harsher on them, for the sake of the super-majority. If you shoplift a dozen times and end up in and out of custody for more serious crimes, I want the book thrown at you. If you murder and rob over and over again, then you might age out of it, but prison is expensive (and has scope to be much cheaper even in the US) and sometimes the death penalty just makes sense (it should be cheaper too).
I am not advocating for some kind of free for all or maximal libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism, at least not today.
Well let me drill down on that a bit. If you believed that her doing sex work was more likely than not (i.e. 51%) to make it so that she'd be unable to marry a reliable, respectable, supportive husband and thus grievously impact her financial future, her odds of being a mother, her overall mental health, are you still going to stand on the 'autonomy' position, even if she's getting some malicious actor whispering in her ear (but, importantly NOT coercing her)? Yes, I would hope she'd listen to her loving father over the Casanova trying to pimp her out, but if she slips up this one
If it was actually that bad? Yup. But at least in reality, I don't think it's remotely as bad. And if she figures out it's a bad idea and wants to pivot away, it is far from impossible to salvage a good life.
Like I said, if OF caused giga-AIDS, we should ban it. But not even actual AIDS kills >51% of people, let alone merely things that could cause AIDS.
Wouldn't you be willing to take some serious measures to avert that?
Why wouldn't I? I hope it's clear that I'm grading according to perceived risk and damage. If my daughter was going to inject herself with a needle filled with literal HIV solution, I'd stop her with force. If it was a needle dropped by a junkie or if she was doing fent, I'd do so too. But come on, are you saying starting an OF is remotely as dangerous? If not, I think my decision to remain within legal bounds is both pragmatically valid and in accordance with my values.
I mean, depends a bit on what "they don't like" actually means. "This woman is riddled with STDs and has a history of violent outbursts" might justify trying to stop you. But yes, that's a fair distinction.
Given that I've just used HIV for my argument so far, sure, I think I'd understand if they did stop me. I certainly wouldn't cut contact or press charges.
Incredibly enjoying this discussion since its one of the few times I'm seeing major daylight between our respective positions, despite coming from almost identical premises, it seems.
I'm off to bed in a bit, but a pleasure nonetheless. I don't think your views are unreasonable, even if we do have our differences.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
19hr ago
You know, while COVID was a bad time in India, the sheer poverty of the country saved us from the ridiculously prolonged lockdowns. Sure, we had them for maybe 2 or 3 months in early 2020, and then another one in late 2020 or early 2021 for the delta wave (much worse than the first one). But it quickly became apparent that society and the government itself would collapse if the majority of people weren't allowed to work. Also, it turned out that the revenue from liquor taxes was rather load bearing for the budget, and awkward adjustments were made quite quickly. The average person stopped regularly masking by early 2021, though I still had to wear one (and wanted to) till the middle of the year.
It's unfortunate that I was deemed an essential worker and had to suffer through it all, including work in overloaded Covid ICUs. We literally ran out of oxygen. The crematoria really did melt from overuse. N95s? I got one every month and had to wash it well past the point of usefulness. Caught the damn bug 4 times at the very least, and that's only considering the times I bothered to get tested. I could have used a break.
Anyway, I think it quickly became clear by the middle of 2020, well past reasonable doubt, that blanket lockdowns made little sense, and that only the elderly and sick needed special attention. What a farce.
Fair enough, and my brother was very convincing when he lied/mislead me before. Not that I hold it against him, I understand, even if I'm a little hurt.
After intense and dedicated research (asking ChatGPT), I must believe you. But holy fucking shit. What the hell is going on here??
I'm not kidding, this is probably the most perplexing thing I've learned in years, I genuinely do not understand why a lesbian woman would enjoy watching media about two men making out. I understand why straight or bi women like yaoi, but lesbians?? I'm half tempted to dedicated my life to research into the topic, but I do enjoy making money.
While not as emotionally shaken as I was when my brother came out, on an intellectual level this is far harder to parse. Whatever, I'm a psychiatrist, I've heard some really weird things. I had a dude tell me he was dead while sitting there, talking to me, and he absolutely meant it.
You're right. I'm still coming to terms with it, and wondering about all the things I missed. But not to a degree that's debilitating, so I hope that reo was wrong when he says it might take months or years to process it. Either way, the fact that I'm fully supportive and don't see my brother in an entirely different light was established to my satisfaction the moment he told me, and that's what really counts. A few drinks, a few drunken chats with my gay friends in Scotland? I'll be as right as rain. I want to talk about this with my closest friends in India, but I promised my brother I wouldn't share with anyone who poses even a meaningful risk of outing him. You guys thankfully don't count, but even then I felt obliged to ask first.
I suspect they, like Clavicular, are best described as being male-to-male trans. Autoandrophilia for men who are already born male. Whatever, I've heard of weirder kinks, and I prefer man on women porn to the solo female/lesbian stuff, even if it technically has infinitely more times the men.
Thanks again, and I mean it strongly. You could make a killing as a coach for conflicted gay/bi men or even their relatives trying to come to terms with it.
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