self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
I'm a transhumanist doctor. In a better world, I wouldn't need to add that as a qualifier to plain old "doctor". It would be taken as granted for someone in the profession of saving lives.
At any rate, I intend to live forever or die trying. See you at Heat Death!
Friends:
A friend to everyone is a friend to no one.
User ID: 454
I'm not inclined to psycho-analyze otherwise I might wonder at the glibness of comparing surgery to a haircut. But I would also disagree that moralizing is unimportant, or is irrational, or actively harmful.
You say that, but the time my dad, a very qualified surgeon, tried to give me a haircut? He cut off a good chunk of my earlobe. Good thing that he's a great surgeon, he managed to get it back on without too much scarring. I'd rather not trust him with future plastic surgery.
If you're inclined to moralize more than I am, be my guest. It's a free country, or at least a free forum.
This rationale will persist after your first surgery. You could still be depressed and incrementally hotter, should you get just one more. Think how many more chicks you'll score with that extra edge. Who knows how your life will be transformed tipping yourself from the 84th to the 85th percentile in looks?
I am a reasonably rational agent, even when depressed. I am pretty good at making expected value calculations, so if I do get the surgery (which is far from certain, even if I intend to), I think I can make those decisions as I go. My plastic surgeon, on finding out I was a psych resident, tried to pimp me by asking me if I was confident that I didn't have body dysmorphic disorder ( @Throwaway05 might find this funny). And I was able to argue, with the facts on my side, that that's not the case. He wasn't being serious, but I had a serious answer. I stand by it. You can do a lot of things if you're not an idiot about it, and I've been accused of many things in my life, but rarely have I been called stupid.
In other words, if I genuinely think a slope is slippery and leads to bad places, I'm going to go take a hike to somewhere safer. For now, I think my shoes have got the grip
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
6hr ago
Ahem:
Sure, more muscle mass is good for your health, all else being equal
Anyway, the point isn't whether a given procedure or intervention brings only relative or absolute good to the person or wider society, it's that there's selective ignorance and cultural blindspots around some parts of it, including advice that would improve things in a non-rivalrous manner. Especially fertility oriented topics.
I could muster a defense of plastic surgery from the perspective of wider society, but my heart isn't in it, and I'm busy frantically working on a competitive submission. As a terrible existence proof: I'm sure the old grannies I meet while they're delirious would love to meet a handsome young psychiatrist. Right now, if they go that far, I have to question their reality orientation against my better judgement.
Maybe such things exist in human society to prevent a red queen race or to prevent enslavement from stronger people.
I think that is remarkably unlikely. You don't see a concerned propaganda effort to stop men going to the gym, which is, at least in part, a Red Queen's Race too. Sure, more muscle mass is good for your health, all else being equal, but if you're a gym-freak, you're comparing yourself to other gym-freaks. I concede that there's a point if we consider people using dangerously high doses of anabolic steroids or other PEDs, but then again, the people who do them to that degree are actively making themselves uglier. Women don't demand six packs, and they mostly tend to shy away from roided out monstrosities. Decreasing marginal returns kick in surprisingly quick, and you can end up with outright negative returns, all while reducing your lifespan.
I am just explaining the reasons for what I precieve are people's natural instincts, this is not an endorsement of those instincts.
I am glad you clarified this, because the instincts you mentioned make me want to bash my head against a wall. Mostly from a transhumanist perspective, I take that seriously.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
7hr ago
It would be very funny for me to turn around and complain that I am hideous and malformed, but I'm not that committed to the bit.
Look dude, to be honest, your disapproval doesn't matter to me. That is not meant as an insult, it's a fact. I'm not asking anyone else to get plastic surgery, if you don't like it, don't get it done.
I have a pretty solid personality, even if I wish I was more extroverted. I am not just my genes, and you're talking to a man who is perfectly happy to make minor changes to the genome of his children if the gene engineering tools are available. I don't want them to have myopia or ADHD, and if there's 200 SNPs that predispose me to have the facial features I do, I won't miss them. My brother, after all, shares most of the same genes, and he's far more handsome. Shame that he's gay and that I have to hold up the bloodline for now.
Why would anyone who understands genetics choose to reproduce with someone who thinks their genes are trash? Isn't there a Chinese movie where both the parents have cosmetic plastic surgery and have really ugly kids
Gene engineering makes this moot, or will make it moot. Most of my genes aren't trash. Most of me isn't trash. You don't see someone taking out a garbage bag and declare that this proves the house should be condemned. Plus, if you have uggo kids, well, the world has room for ugly people. They can get plastic surgery too.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
7hr ago
If a friend came to me and said "I want surgery to change X part about me" my concern would not be based in this notion that looks don't matter, or that one is necessarily wrong to have issues with self-esteem, or that I am somehow blind to my own charms and blessings.
My concern would be that for someone who gets up in the morning and doesn't like who they see in the mirror, that surgery will not fix what ails them.
That is a valid concern, and one that I would have if a friend of mine told me something similar.
But I am careful not to let it become a fully general counterargument. Surgery for cosmetic purposes is not as qualitatively different from working out or getting a nice haircut as it seems (and the latter does involve cutting off parts of yourself). You can break your back at the gym. A bad diet can give you brittle bones. Once you have broken it down into risk versus benefit, then there is little else to add that isn't moralizing.
Even more important is that self-image and self-regard are not the only pertinent metrics. If I end up depressed again, I'd rather be fit and depressed. If I'm suicidal, I'd rather be hot and getting laid while feeling suicidal. As I've insisted, I am neither depressed or suicidal right now (and you better believe I'm grateful for that).
Similarly, being taller has benefits even if you don't appreciate them. Being rich improves your life, even if the hedonic treadmill mostly beats compound interest as the most powerful force in the current universe. I'd rather cry in a limo than on a bus, and I've cried on a bus.
Are you being honest with yourself that you could just get one surgery, and then you would be happy? That it would remedy what gnaws at you?
I believe so. I think I'm unusually good at introspection and understanding what makes me tick. Am I 100% confident of that? I'd be a poor Bayesian if I was that blase about things. I do not claim to be perfect, but I am confident enough that I don't worry about it. I've done that worrying in the past, and it wasn't particularly productive.
If the surgery goes well, I might opt for more. I am unlikely to, unless it ends up botched and I urgently need revision. As you can see, I have waited a long time, and haven't rushed into things. That counts for a lot.
I am also aware that the surgery is not a panacea for all that ails me. I have reasonable expectations. I am pursuing all available avenues for self-improvement, while the relief from severe depression gives me the will and energy to do so.
At the end of the day, this is a personal decision. I am most accountable to myself, and I've stamped that decision only after a lot of internal debate. I discussed my intentions with friends and family well before I decided to bite the bullet. I've even written about it here. I'm not sitting and crying while looking at myself in the mirror, God knows I've never felt that awful about my looks. I just want to be more handsome than I already am, and can afford the surgery while being willing to accept the risks.
I have only been on oral semaglutide for maybe 4 months in the past 1 year, counting from when I started it after antidepressant related weight gain. I stopped mostly because I started going to the gym somewhat seriously, and I wanted to make bigger muscles more strongly than I wanted to lose weight. I've got 6 months supply staring at me, but my weight is at a reasonable level, even if not ideal.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
9hr ago
The importance of looks (not just physical but also fashion) and how one might improve that (whether man or woman)
I can assure you that a large number of men say the same, even intelligent and reasonable ones.
As a personal example: while I was still in India, I was seriously contemplating minor plastic surgery. I wasn't depressed, I wasn't in a rush; I'd deferred it over a year because my parents had thrown a fit, and they wanted me to try and lose weight and get fitter the old fashioned way (which I did). I'd seen a surgeon. I had a tentative date.
I broached the topic to my closest friend group back home. All men. Handsome men. Smart men. Good with the ladies, even if some of them are clearly in a different league. When I'm with them, I'm acutely aware that I'm not the most handsome man in the group, not even the tallest (there's a real big mf in there). I insist that this is not cause for malignant envy or jealousy, I love those guys. They've been nothing but good to me, and vice versa. They've often told me that they're slightly jealous of me, because of the things I'm good at, or just happen to have a natural talent in. Some of us are taller, some of us are richer, some of us are less depressed. But we're all smart, funny motherfuckers, if I say so myself.
Yet, when I broached the topic, and told them that I'd made up my mind to go ahead? They were surprised, somewhat dismayed, and begged me to reconsider. I was ready for this. I had pre-empted their concerns. I told them:
- I know I'm not ugly. I'd say I'm somewhat better looking than the average man, at least for my local reference class. I've done well with the ladies. Yet, I wish to be hotter, and I feel great discomfort when I see hotter men doing better. I pointed at them.
- I am very much not depressed. I know this as confidently as I do when I know that I am depressed (which was most of the time, I'm hoping the euthymic sticks).
- I was depressed when I first considered this, but I held off for a year, during which I worked on myself in the sense that doesn't involve a scalpel. The fact that I was still committed? That is robust evidence that this is a genuine desire and not a decision made out of desperation.
- I have done a great deal of research into the risks and benefits. I felt slightly uncomfortable, but from a rational perspective, I was willing to accept the risks and had settled for a conservative approach. I didn't expect the procedure to turn me into Adonis overnight. It probably won't even make me as handsome as some of them. But going from 60-75th percentile to 75th-85th percentile is a big jump in practical terms, and I'm happy with that. To be clear, that's just facial appearance. From a holistic perspective, I'm much, much more attractive as a potential partner.
Their initial reaction was not subtle male intrasexual competition. Nor was their followup response:
They told me I should go to the gym, that I should diet better and get new clothes and groom myself well. I pointed out, quite accurately, that those were not mutually exclusive options, and that I was actually pursuing all of them. This isn't a group of hotter girls telling their slightly chubby friend that the no-makeup "natural" look suits her, or jealous hoes telling their hotter friend that a bob-cut would be a great idea. We don't do this. We are sane, well-adjusted men. We try to lift each other up, instead of pulling each other down like pubic crabs might do to your dating potential.
Their reaction wasn't a lie, not even a subconscious attempt to keep me down. Unlike the feminine example above, going to the gym and getting a good haircut is still good advice. It just ignores the other options on the table.
At this point, they were slightly tongue-tied. They were too honest to tell me that looks didn't matter. They were too honest to tell me that I was misrepresenting myself. They just genuinely wanted what was best for me, and were worried that I was jumping the gun. They sighed, and we moved on. I am happy with that outcome, though I was much less happy about being called back to work on minimal notice, which meant I had to defer the procedure into the indefinite future.
My point is that these are good men, intelligent and introspective men. They know how to read the room. Yet, they are often blind to their own blessings, and quick to discount them. I don't blame them, some of that impulse comes from genuine kindness, from an urge to not let people they care about feel even worse about themselves than they already do.
I try to be kind too, but I am much less willing to trade it off for honesty. This extends to self-assessment and critique: I am painfully honest about my own strengths or weaknesses. I never tell someone complaining about being short that height doesn't matter. I don't tell people who worry that they're not smart enough that intelligence doesn't matter, that it's all hard work. I don't tell my buddies who ask me how I make people laugh so easily that it's a skill that's trivial to pick up, or that much of it isn't innate. I think this makes me a good ethnographer, and I'm self-aware enough to know that some reading this might consider this puffery and self-aggrandizement. Fuck you. I know better, I hedge no more than I need to.
I read papers. I review the old OkCupid blogs. I have a good idea of what works. I am also aware of my own neuroses, that this impulse arises because I grew up with a far more handsome younger brother and best friend (he's part of this friend group). I used to feel much worse about my looks, I would seethe with jealousy. That pot boiled over, I'm mostly at peace with myself. It's incredibly ironic that my brother came out as gay, which makes his appeal to the ladies largely moot. This doesn't change the factual situation, my observations on the difference that 95th+ percentile attractiveness made were very real. The emotional valence might have blunted with time and growing into my own skin, but the truth doesn't change because of it.
The usefulness of economic concepts such as SMV and the dating market
I've known plenty of intelligent men who think "SMV" is a tainted, sexist concept. I acknowledge that this is more likely to be a view held by women, but I am sensible enough not to go around talking about SMV with most women, not even most men.
The biological clock for having kids (more apparent for women, but men also have degrading sperm quality with age)
I have found that the majority of women in my sociocultural milieu are reasonably aware of this, in India or otherwise. Then again, they're disproportionately doctors, and you'd expect them to know better. This is probably the biggest delta between sexes, but mostly because men genuinely do age better and hold their attractiveness longer on average. I'm probably more attractive as a partner now than I'd have been 5 years back, and it's going to be a while till I'll truly peak. And that peak? It leads to a plateau and gentle decline.
Finally, it's important to disentangle socially approved canned lines from revealed preferences. Women are much more likely to obsess over makeup, hair dyes, cosmetic procedures. At a deep level, people tend to understand much more strongly than they let on, be it in public or to themselves. I understand the discomfort, I just power through it.
My point, assuming there is a point, is that I think it's unfair to single out women as being unique here. This topic is incredibly uncomfortable for most people. It's socially taboo.
I wish it wasn't, which is why I'm talking about it. The taboo prevents actions that genuinely help, even if, to a degree, this is a Red Queen Race. Teaching everyone to run the same percentage faster doesn't change who wins the race, you just burn more calories on the way. On the other hand, being sensible about your dating prospects or reproductive potential does bring non-rivalrous benefits to yourself and others.
Oh well. If my willingness to be clear-eyed about these things gives me alpha, then I'm not that fussed about other people being idiots, even if my innate honesty and inability to sit by when people are being wrong (on the internet or IRL) often makes me speak up. That's what I'm doing right now.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
10hr ago
If there's one thing Scotland doesn't lack it's rain windmills. There's one within spitting distance of a hospital I worked at, and it's conveniently close to a psych ward, they can drag me in on a hold once they catch wind of my antics.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
17hr ago
We have the same meme here too, but to be fair, I've only been here for 2.5 days, and it would be unfair of me to opine too hard.
Still, I'm tempted to purchase a cardboard sign that says "CAPACITY IS NOT ALL-OR-NOTHING. IT IS ASSUMED TO BE PRESENT BY DEFAULT, BUT IS EVALUATED ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS AND CAN VARY DEPENDING ON CONTEXT. IF YOU BLEEP ME BECAUSE YOUR PATIENT SAYS THEY'RE FEELING SAD AFTER A CANCER DIAGNOSIS WAS JUST DISCLOSED TO THEM, I MIGHT SHOW UP, BUT I WILL BE MUTTERING ANGRILY UNDER MY BREATH."
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
19hr ago
I was happier not remembering that textual exchange, let alone the sexual exchange within it. The ass-hair has grown back, but I still felt like an ass for shaving it and then getting stood up at the aisle.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
19hr ago
Sir. You are getting slow in your old age, that was a joke :(
I'm not sure if the workload I'm experiencing is typical, but it's almost always safe to bet that the NHS is understaffed and overworked. I'd say this counts as hectic but not unbearable, the primary annoyance is running around a very large hospital, and I get very lost half the time.
(It is very rare for anyone outside of psych to understand how capacity works. I barely understood the UK version until several months within psych, I was winging it till then.)
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
Goddammit, I wanted to talk about cute but intimidatingly competent colleagues complimenting me. It's liaison psychiatry.
Busy......Emergency?
Oh there's no rush. Get well soon.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
@Throwaway05 is correct. New rotation, after a mercifully long vacation extended somewhat involuntarily by geopolitical strife. I've been enjoying it so far, for a value of enjoyment which encompasses and excuses being incredibly stressed. At least my colleagues seem nice: a cute Dutch doctor said I have a great voice. She suggested I should be a voice actor, a compliment I have carefully filed away for later. And here I was thinking that I only had the face for radio...
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
No gym this week, but mostly because I was traveling for 48 hours and just started a new, extremely hectic job. I'll give myself a pass for once, but I intend to go tomorrow.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
2d ago
I asked around and that's the general consensus. I suppose I pity them too much to pretend to be legally blind and claim that the TV is a just a modern painting. Thanks!
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3d ago
Thanks! Would they make an exception for frangible ammo or is it a blanket ban? Not that I particularly mind going out to a more rural range, shooting hogs from a helicopter is something I'll absolutely sign up for if I end up in Texas.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3d ago
I'm saving this comment for later, you're not the first person to offer to take me out shooting in the US, but I remain just as grateful as ever. $100 is nothing in comparison to the cost of a proper US vacation, let alone what might be a once in lifetime rare experience. I've spent more on a night out with friends, and I didn't even get to shoot anyone.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3d ago
I'm surprised you know this, but didn't know about the TV license.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3d ago
Well, there has to be a first one. It's probably not going to be the last.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3d ago
Hey, given how hard it'll be for me to visit the States, and how rare an occasion that would be, I'm willing to shell out for some... shells. While I'm happy to give handguns a try, do keep an eye open for anything intermediate caliber or larger! If I don't mag dump an AR-15 once, I don't think I've really lived. Thanks!
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
4d ago
Ah, the dreaded TV license mail finally showed up at my doorstep. Oi, you gotta license for that telly?
If someone knows a good way to tell them to go fuck themselves, please let me know. The closest thing I have to a TV is on a desk, being used as a ridiculously oversized monitor for my PC. My flatmate is busy playing retro games on some CRT setup and he is definitely not the kind to hook that chonker up to BBC iPlayer.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
4d ago
Autocorrect is putting respect on Freud's name. That, or my acute sleep deprivation after 48 hours of travel is giving me dementia.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
4d ago
What kind of guns are you allowed to buy? Just bolt-action hunting rifles or shotguns? Anything semi-auto?
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
4d ago
It's a sub-standard utopia. I'd take living in the Culture over present reality any day of the weak, but given their technology and resources, they're doing fuck-all with it.
As ridiculous as it sounds, the biggest downside to the Culture is their parochial attitude and small-mindedness. They simply lack ambition or gumption. They're the equivalent of a society that can mass manufacture graphene at scale, but only use it to make slightly nicer bicycles instead of space elevators.
Why? Fuck you, I ain't saying. I've got a mostly complete essay in the works which gets it into the weeds of it.
Hmm. I think you're still underestimating how dumb evolution is. It is remarkably bad at preventing Red Queen races. In fact, I'd be so bold to say that most of what evolution had done is a Red Queen race. The textbook examples come from biology!
Peacocks and their inconvenient, oversized, flamboyant tails. Immune systems and the pathogens that try to get around them. Predators getting faster to catch their prey, and the prey getting quicker so as to not get eaten.
I don't see it being applicable to humans. At best, you can make a case for cultural evolution, which operates on much tighter timescales. The problem with that approach is that I can still point to countries like South Korea or China, where plastic surgery is far more common, almost expected even. The latter country has 1.3 billion people, so if this is a popularity contest, it's the West that's being weird about things.
Fair enough. If someone else wants to live forever too, I'm content to live and let live. I hope you find a comfy jar.
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