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thrownaway24e89172

naïve paranoid outcast

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joined 2022 September 09 17:41:34 UTC 

				
User ID: 1081


				
				
				

			

		

	














	


		


			



	

		

			

			

				

					

						

							
						

						

							
							

								
thrownaway24e89172


								

								

								
								
								

								
							
					
 
				


				
naïve paranoid outcast

				
				
				

				

					2 followers  

					follows 0 users  

					joined 2022 September 09 17:41:34 UTC
				


				
					

					
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User ID: 1081


					
					
					
				

			


					

						
					



		

	

 











			
			

			
			

			




	


		

			
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				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I think it is less that the accusations came from outsiders and more that those outsiders were just using the accusations to discredit her arguments via ad hominem.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I don’t know anyone who believes that child molestation is okay as long as you’d prefer adults.




Maybe there's a gendered difference?  When I reported being fondled and groped the response was always that it was okay and I shouldn't be bothered by it because it wasn't sexual despite people literally grabbing my penis.  A few times I was punished for trying to pull their hands away, and one particular person chasing me as I tried to avoid her at get-togethers became a running family joke.  Those experiences make me feel like that belief isn't that uncommon.




The particular offender to whom I refer has allegedly been inappropriate with adults as well. I don’t know that he is a true pedophile. I am simply astonished that apparently someone can try his hardest to fuck a child, and everyone will just… act like it didn’t happen. Perhaps you and I agree about taking a hard line on troublesome behavior.




Yes, such behavior is not acceptable.  I feel like a lot of the hatred of pedophilia comes down to people wanting an easy way to show they are against child molestation without having to actually put in any real effort in preventing it, like confronting someone actually molesting a child.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
True, but "minor attracted person" originated in academia in people studying pedophilia specifically because the distinction you mentioned had broken down to the point of being unusable.  The progressive movement adopting the term is merely the inevitable progression to it too losing its distinction.  I don't know that it is possible to ever maintain the distinction since the topic holds so much power over people's emotions.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
The problem is we focus too much on hatred specifically of pedophilia rather than of child molestation.  There are a number of problems with this approach beyond the one @Sunshine mentioned.  Most relevant to your argument is the assumption that only pedophiles molest children, and the corollary that if you aren't a pedophile then your behavior must be "okay".  The majority of child molesters are not pedophiles and they will often justify their behavior based on this fact.


On a more personal note, I think taking a harder line on troublesome behaviors would make my life as a pedophile much easier.  Almost all of my sessions with my therapist boil down to some variation of "What is the appropriate behavior in this situation?" (eg, "A child comes up to me while I'm walking my dog and asks to pet her.  Do I let the child pet my dog or not?").  It is extremely confusing how many behaviors are considered problematic based on whether the actor is attracted to someone rather than judging the intentions of the actor and the actual impact on others.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Strictly speaking yes, but too many people fail to recognize that distinction for it to actually be useful.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
The fires are already being lit:




The IWF report reiterates the real world harm of AI images. Although children are not harmed directly in the making of the content, the images normalise predatory behaviour and can waste police resources as they investigate children that do not exist.


In some scenarios new forms of offence are being explored too, throwing up new complexities for law enforcement agencies.


For example, the IWF found hundreds of images of two girls whose pictures from a photoshoot at a non-nude modelling agency had been manipulated to put them in Category A sexual abuse scenes.


The reality is that they are now victims of Category A offences that never happened.




				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of November 6, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Was the increase in the education of Afghan girls worth the increase in sexual abuse of Afghan boys?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
There was no grief.  The problem is merely one of not being able to organize my thoughts well enough and keep them organized long enough to write coherently.  The more I tried to focus on the topic to better describe it, the more chaotic and fragmented my thoughts became.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I think I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation.  It is a bit unsatisfying to end it without having been able to clarify what I meant, but this is getting too close to negative childhood experiences with the Catholic Church (to be clear, NOT relating to clergy abuse) for me to continue.  Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position.  I'm sorry I couldn't reciprocate.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


The point was to normalize doing gay things, wasn't it?




Yes, normalizing "doing gay things" is one of the goals of the movement, but not the only one.  I distinguished that from acceptance as gay people for two reasons.  First, Western society was significantly more openly hostile to even celibate gay people when the Born This Way narrative became popular, which I think is important historical context to consider when evaluating its efficacy.  Second, getting back to pedophilia, it is rather common for pedophiles to not actually care much about engaging in sexual relations with children but who still want to be able to participate somewhat normally in society without having to hide that they have those feelings, making the distinction between acceptance as people and acceptance of relationships a bit more pronounced in that case.




The Catholic Church's teachings are completely and totally consistent with Born This Way. They are lovingly accepting of people being gay, they just take a hard line against doing gay things. They have all kinds of programs to help people who struggle with their sinful compulsions. I don't think this comports at all with what the gay liberation movement fights/fought for.




This is a complex topic that I don't know that I can do justice to.  The ideal that you refer to here is as you note only part of what they want and other aspects of the Church's teachings are incompatible with their desires.  It is also unfortunately not always reflected in the actions of the faithful.  For a little more detailed exploration of the topic, I'll refer you to an old discussion at r/theschism, particularly the long back and forth between /u/UAnchovy and /u/callmejay.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I don't think we disagree.




It's not clear to me whether we do or not.




All I'm saying is that Born This Way was never anywhere near the strongest argument for gay liberation.  Acceptance of gay people and gay relationships should come from recognition that these behaviors aren't harmful and can indeed be extremely functional, personally fulfilling, and even prosocial, supporting stable family formation. ... Conversely, regardless of what causes attraction to prepubescent children, laws against child molestation should still stand.




There's an important difference between acceptance of gay people and acceptance of gay relationships, and similarly between acceptance of pedophiles and acceptance of sexual relationships between adults and children.  Being outed as gay often meant losing your job, losing your social network, being subject to harassment or assault, etc, even if you didn't participate in gay relationships.  Being outed as a pedophile (EDIT:) has can have similar repercussions even if you are never sexually involved with a child.  The core of the Born This Way argument is that these desires are both immutable and not the result of a conscious choice, which I think is a very strong argument that they shouldn't have to hide those feelings simply to participate in society without being subject to such social sanction.  The only way I think you can argue it was "never anywhere near the strongest argument for gay liberation" is if you restrict gay liberation to tolerance of openly gay relationships, which I agree it is not really relevant to, and ignore everything else it fights/fought for.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


Are we talking academic feminism or popular understanding of feminism (“it just means ‘women are people’, equal rights, etc ”)?


Because I think the wider population is far less anti-pornography, anti-prostitution and anti-free speech than committed feminists , so modern feminism as a political player is hardly on the pro-side of these issues.




I'd say somewhere in the middle.  I think the primary political power of feminism stems from people who have a deeper understanding of feminism than the "pop feminism" you reference, who accurately refer to themselves as feminists, but aren't directly involved in academic feminism.  For example, consider a lawyer who graduated with a degree in gender studies in addition to whatever pre-law degree they sought and then entered a career in government.  I think these feminist are largely sex positive and the instances where they appear not to be are usually due to them reacting to a situation framed in such a way that the impact on women's agency is not obvious to them.  I don't think it is fair to dismiss them as "not real feminists".  Meanwhile, academic feminism has a lot of perverse incentives that drive it to produce...less popular views, but I don't think those views hold much power until they are distilled and accepted by former group.






Hmmm. I thought they denied it was necessarily a bad thing, not that it exists at all.




Well it’s the original objection to kant. Are you ‘objectifying’ a baker by buying his bread? If yes, we are constantly objectifying others, I can’t see the problem with it, the concept of ‘objectifying’ loses all negative valence, so may as well not exist.




Consider the difference between 'homicide' and 'murder'.  Does the fact that 'homicide' lacks the negative valence of 'murder' mean it may as well not exist?  To the contrary, the fact that it lacks a negative valence is the reason it does exist because we sometimes don't view killing someone as a negative and thus require a more neutral term.  I think '[sexual] objectification' is more similar to 'homicide' in the eyes of a sex positive feminist, who use it to describe something without passing judgement on it, and more similar to 'murder' in that it is passing judgement in the eyes of a sex negative one.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 5, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


For someone that just makes $100K/year at their very normal job, buys a very normal house, and puts a bunch of money into index funds, I genuinely have no idea why they think taxes are hard.




It's not hard, it's just tedious and needlessly stressful because you are manually copying data from form to form and a typo can (but often doesn't) result in a lot financial and/or legal pain.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


Note the heavy emphasis on free speech. Does this sound like modern feminism to you?




Yes, it does.  Sex positive feminism maintains women should be free to engage in sex, in pornography, in sex work, etc without being shamed or otherwise punished for doing so.  That seems to be by far the most prevalent form of modern feminism to me.  This is completely separate from whether or not men should be able to take advantage of that freedom to satisfy their own desires.




If they were truly sex positive, they would deny that ‘objectification’ was even a real thing.




Hmmm.  I thought they denied it was necessarily a bad thing, not that it exists at all.


EDIT: Grammar.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I think it's worth looking at the answers to that question when it's posed for other sexual orientations or desires. "Can't you just not be a public masturbator?" "Can't you just not be a pedophile?" "Can't you just not be a sadistic murderer, Ted?" If he says, "No! I was born this way, and I can't change!" then... well, so much the worse for him, right? Innateness is a crap argument for accepting a behavior.




One of these things is very much not like the other, as pedophilia isn't a behavior.  One can avoid being a public masturbator by not masturbating in public.  One can avoid being a sadistic murderer by not murdering anyone.  How does one avoid being a pedophile?  Not molesting a child is not sufficient.  Not interacting at all with children is not sufficient.  Engaging in sex you don't particularly enjoy with adults is not sufficient.  Avoiding sex altogether is not sufficient.  Saying "I was born this way and I can't change!" is a call for recognizing that it goes a lot deeper than simply "don't have sex with kids" and affects a lot of things that aren't necessarily obvious to people who only think of pedophilia in the context of child rape.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I think you are misunderstanding what "sex positive" and "sex negative" refer to.  The schism between the two groups basically revolves around how one answers the question "Is heterosexual sex oppressive of women?".  Sex negative feminists hold that it is and thus heterosexual sex must be eschewed, leading to things like political lesbianism.  Sex positive feminists hold that it is not necessarily oppressive and that women should be free engage their sexuality so long as it is empowering to them.  Sex positive feminists still often oppose the sexual objectification of women because it is not empowering.  That doesn't make them sex negative however.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Sex positive feminists won the feminist sex wars though.  Sex positive feminists were never supportive of male sexuality except so far as it could be exploited by women.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


The progressive movement that exists today is overwhelmingly sex negative: they are in favor of raising the age of consent (to 25), against age gaps, against workplace relationships, against flirting in public, or in bars, or everywhere except designated dating apps, against prostitution, against pornography (except onlyfans), against sex comedies, against sexy women in video games, against revealing clothing in movies.




The progressive movement that exists today can be summarized as "Straight male sexuality bad, everything else good!".  They are in favor of raising the age of consent, but deny that women actually need to get consent from men.  They are against age gaps, but deny behavior of older women toward younger men is sexual.  They are against men flirting with women unless the women desire it, but think women should be free to flirt with men whenever they wish.  They are against any media that panders to the sexual desires of straight men, but are okay with media that panders to the sexual desires of others.


"Sex positivity" has always been tied up in Feminism and thus has always only cared about ensuring sexual outcomes are positive for women.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Minnesota does:




The majority of these offenders served prison time and were then civilly committed because they were deemed too dangerous to release. Some came straight from juvenile custody.


The patients claim the Minnesota Sex Offender Program offers little rehabilitation or chance of release from facilities at Moose Lake and St. Peter. And, they say, the indefinite detention violates their constitutional right to due process.


In the history of the program, no one has been unconditionally released, Gustafson said. One man was granted provisional release two years ago. And as the experts evaluate more patients, he expects more orders.




EDIT: More background:




State courts have sent more than 560 high-risk sexual predators to the Minnesota Sex Offender Program for indefinite treatment since 1995. The only person ever released was later pulled back inside for a violation and died there.




				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
The majority of child abuse, including sexual abuse, is committed by non-pedophiles so society is apparently already on board with such trade-offs.  Advocating the incarceration of pedophiles simply due to their attractions is just a way for lazy self-righteous people to feel like they are protecting children without having to do the work of actually looking into the causes of abuse and thinking seriously about the trade-offs that would be required to avert it.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
This all assumes that she realizes this before abandoning her husband "to get a better deal".  The women I know who have done this didn't give up their high standards until after they left and learned it the hard way.  Choosing to leave a partner is often more an emotional decision than a rational one and a sudden drop in QoL isn't exactly conducive to rational thinking.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


without even getting into man-on-man homophobia




Imagine if we took men's complaints about men creeping them out sexually as seriously as we take women's complaints about men creeping them out sexually.  Say we at the very least didn't default to assuming they are just hateful toward men who find them attractive?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Israel-Gaza Megathread #3
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
It seems likely there are some internal power struggles going on behind the scenes in the Democratic party over this. Consider that one of Minnesota's representatives recently announced his intention to run against Biden for the Democratic nomination (despite almost no chance of success) and around the same time local Muslim community leaders issued Biden an ultimatum to call for a ceasefire by Oct 31st or lose their votes.  The fractures in the Republican party have been center stage recently due to the fight for the speakership, but the Democratic party isn't looking to be in that much better shape.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 23, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I have no data to prove this, but from all my life experience it seems plain that, if women could still get attention and commitment without having to be sexually available as they could in my grandmother's youth, far fewer of them would be sexually available.




I don't think this is true, or it is at least incomplete.  I'm reminded of an old reddit comment from /u/janearcade:




This I'm not sure about. I often read the trope of "men jumping through hoops desperately for the opportunity for sex." But when the topic of the sex trade comes up, I often also read (and this has been more of my experience), "Men doesn't just want sex they pay for, they want warmth and love and support for a woman they can trust."




I think there is a large unmet demand from men for such supportive relationships that women could tap into if they truly just wanted "attention and commitment without having to be sexually available".  It feels more like women largely don't want to be supportive of their partners in this way and use sexual availability to get a facsimile of the "attention and commitment" they desire from men instead.  I'd wager that women in your grandmother's youth were much more open to providing that emotional support.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Friday Fun Thread for October 27, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Google became the advertising behemoth it is today by creating an ad network that promised to be (and for a long time delivered on being) non-intrusive at a time when online advertising was getting extremely obnoxious.  It's a bit disappointing to see them stoop to these practices now that they have no real competition, but such is the way of things.  Maybe a new competitor will arise to take advantage of the situation like they once did.