traveller
1yr ago
And my general take is that Holocaust denialism/revisionism isn't so much a problem in and of itself as long as the person arguing it isn't trying to extend the argument to say "and therefore the Nazis weren't so bad" or, worse "and therefore we shouldn't worry about/take efforts to prevent future genocide attempts."
I admit that for me what triggers "go away, you nasty troll" is that their username shortens to SS.
Which takes turn to pissing on graves for me.
traveller
1yr ago
Yeah, but they didn't know they'd bungle it when they started. Hindsight is 20:20.
With their handling hindsight was not needed.
On Sunday, after Popov already knew that Kursk was missing and presumed sunk, he briefed reporters on the progress of the naval exercise. He said the exercise had been a resounding success and spoke highly of the entire operation.
(...)
On the afternoon of the explosion, before the Kremlin had been informed of the submarine's sinking, U.S. National Security Adviser Sandy Berger and Defense Secretary William Cohen were told that Kursk had sunk.
(...)
The first official announcement of the accident was made by the Russians on Monday, 14 August. They told the media that Kursk had had "minor technical difficulties" on Sunday. They stated that the submarine had "descended to the ocean floor", that they had established contact with the crew and were pumping air and power to the boat, and that "everyone on board is alive."
(everyone was dead on 12 August, some sailors survived about 6 hours )
traveller
1yr ago
Can you reply to:
-
do you deny that Nazis murdered millions of civilians in areas they occupied
-
are you a neonazi
-
is SS as acronym deliberate
?
Where are all the bodies?
What you claim to happened with people who were transported into for example Auschwitz?
traveller
1yr ago
It is strange to accuse Revisionists of "moving the goalposts" when you refuse to defend the core elements of the mainstream narrative.
Personally I am not familiar with gas chambers details and I am unwilling to spend 20+ hours on research just to debate with neonazi on the internet on some obscure forum. Sorry SS if you are not a neonazi but I asked you multiple times about that and about origin of your username and you never responded so I assume that you are.
But I am far more certain that Germans murdered millions of people, many of them for being Jews. And that part is much, much easier to defend without spending overly long time to research this things.
So if you deny that Nazis murdered millions of people that is much easier thing to discuss for me, and if you do not deny then you would become more interesting to debate details. If you would deny that Germans forced Jews into ghettos then things would get even more obvious.
traveller
1yr ago
It is well known that the Germans gave prisoners at Auschwitz the option to either remain in the camp to be liberated by the Soviets or flee west with them. Most prisoners chose to go with the Germans, if you can believe that.
not checking this, but given how "evacuations" were defined by Germans I would be suspicious what will happen with remaining ones. Also, if people there were aware of what awaits people "liberated" by Soviets vs actually liberated, then trying to escape both Third Reich and USSR would be a good idea.
(See German armies trying to escape to Elbe’s shore to not end under USSR rule, with help to substantial numbers of civilians marking a rare case of Wermacht doing something good during WW II)
This is hilariously backwards. Ukranians volunteered for the German War effort at such a rate that Germany had one of the largest foreign volunteer armies in history, composed mostly of slavs and Soviet citizens.
And guess, how many Poles volunteered? And why ratio was so low despite USSR being evil, dangerous and both fact known widely in Poland?
Is there any logical reason for a nazi symphatiser to claim the Holocaust wasn't as murderous as the official accounts?
No, but I would not expect much from nazi symphatisers. Extreme tankies that I encountered at least tend to be self consistent and more reality-adjacent with their "we murdered kulaks and that was a good thing" or more modern "we hope that Europeans, especially Ukrainians, will freeze to death during 2022/2023 winter"[1].
"Holocaust has not happened but should" is something that I often encountered among online nazis, especially 4chan adjacent.
BTW, I need to refind this Russian propaganda how European Union will freeze during winter, so far it is going even more hilariously than I expected.
[1]not an exact quote, I forgot the slur that was used here
traveller
1yr ago
Yes, but I admit that it was one of my immediate thoughts. Maybe because it was depressing and pole is without any context? And in my areas public transport poles are not standalone in the middle but more bundled with other parts of the vehicle?
traveller
1yr ago
You are free to say that but it has no relation to what the "Holocaust" actually is.
and then you quote
The possible final remnant
I think that you found the genocide confirmation that you were looking for?
traveller
1yr ago
Documents show that these workers were very important for the war effort
Because Germans were famous for not-terrible-treatment of conquered areas where everyone had first-hand experience of USSR.
Oh wait, they were so terrible that people as result initially welcomed USSR as liberators (despite that things then went almost as bad as "liberation" by Third Reich). And put plenty of effort into sabotaging German war effort to help USSR.
Germans had hilariously poor treatment of potential recruits and workers, they actually believed that they as subhumans and failed to even pretend otherwise.
traveller
1yr ago
Why would I address it when you aren't even trying to defend mainstream historiography?
So you are agreeing that Germans murdered millions of Jews, just not with gas chambers?
traveller
1yr ago
explicitly describe the "final solution" as the evacuation of the Jews to the East
Even if you interpret it in painfully positive way it still has explicitly (1) A majority of people will not survive this (2) The survivors will have to be "treated" as not to serve as a "gamete" for the reconstruction of European Judaism (3) Mixed children will, with some exceptions, be expelled, forced into "evacuation", or sterilised.
Calling it evacuation is extremely misleading and you know it. I bet that you would be really unhappy if you and your family would be "evacuated" in this way.
traveller
1yr ago
Therefore your narrow reliance on Soviet-provided data on the number of Jews in the Soviet Union post-war is putting far too much weight on an unreliable source.
Again: that is relying on reports from actual people living in Poland. Before Germans invaded Jews were everywhere, after they were not there. Unlike with say expulsion of Germans we have no records of this people arriving anywhere.
traveller
1yr ago
The high mortality at these camps liberated by the Western allies was caused by a collapsing German infrastructure as it was being destroyed in the final days of the war.
What you then claim what happened with Polish Jewish pre-war population? Are you also claiming that forcing Jews into ghettos by Germans was fake? Executing people across conquered territories?
I bet that there is plenty of propaganda (add "soap made from human fat" to that) but presenting in a way that claims "Germans have not mass-murdered millions" is even more misleading.
Also, is it intentional that your username in short is SS?
traveller
1yr ago
Well, if the vaccine is that deadly, how smart are the "smart, educated" people who went ahead and got it, versus the "dumb, uneducated" who were suspicious and sceptical?
IF
traveller
1yr ago
russia would make peace.
Yeah, and sign peace promising respecting remaining part of Ukraine. Maybe it should be signed in Budapest and called Budapest Memorandum II ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum )
traveller
1yr ago
Mary Mallon would have been entirely justified to kill her captors and escape for by the point they imprisoned her in perpetuity they broke the social contract and returned her and themselves to the state of Nature.
I was unfamiliar with that but assuming that following is accurate I do not consider it as straightforward. And if you go "returned her and themselves to the state of Nature" then it anyway justifies using raw power to overpower everyone else anyway - and I do not think that it is in any way better.
Mary Mallon (September 23, 1869 – November 11, 1938), commonly known as Typhoid Mary, was an Irish-born American cook believed to have infected between 51 and 122 people with typhoid fever. The infections caused three confirmed deaths, with unconfirmed estimates of up to 50. She was the first person in the United States identified as an asymptomatic carrier of the pathogenic bacteria Salmonella typhi.[1][2] She persisted in working as a cook and thereby exposed others to the disease. Because of that, she was twice forcibly quarantined by authorities, eventually for the final two decades of her life. Mallon died after a total of nearly 30 years in isolation.[3][4]
(...)
She used fake surnames like Breshof or Brown, and took jobs as a cook against the explicit instructions of health authorities. No agencies that hired servants for upscale families would offer her employment, so for the next five years, she moved to the mass sector. She worked in a number of kitchens in restaurants, hotels, and spa centers. Almost everywhere she worked, there were outbreaks of typhoid.[35] However, she changed jobs frequently, and Soper was unable to find her.[13]
In 1915, Mallon started working at Sloane Hospital for Women in New York City. Soon 25 people were infected, and two died. The head obstetrician, Dr. Edward B. Cragin, called Soper and asked him to help in the investigation. Soper identified Mallon from the servants' verbal descriptions and also by her handwriting.
traveller
1yr ago
We shouldn’t just blindly accept the government narrative about war, in fact the default is better off being negative.
Europeans should be more scepticals but at least only small minority is failing for much lower quality Russian claims. So it is not a complete failure at least.
traveller
1yr ago
If I get infected, I'm getting a few particles as part of a spray.
no, cells in your body are hijacked to produce endless copies of virus
if you are infected it is not going to be "few particles"
traveller
1yr ago
Though the same group proves that PoWs were treated awfully by Russia.
So apparently really bad treatment is happening, though without routine murder of surrendering Ukrainians. Always nice to be passing some standards.
In the same way, Himmler will refer to a camp, like Sobibor, as a "Transit Camp"
Transit? Between what? Somehow people were ending in camps and disappearing there, never heard about again.
And even if we believe all that (and there is no good reason for that), then according to own plans they were expecting that they will be enslaved and most of them will quickly die.
Seriously, starving people to death in concentration camps is not better - in any way - than gas chambers. So even if this specific denial you peddle would be 100% accurate then it would not change much, except historians being even more suspicious.
And your outright "mass murder of Jews never happened" is just absurd. Are you also denying that Germans mass-murdered Gypsies? Poles?
And thanks to RococoBasilica, nice to have confirmation that you were lying or being misleading about "no documents".
traveller
1yr ago
And then imagine after an exchange debating the evidence for the claim, you ultimately force a "stalemate" by saying "if they weren't murdered, cremated, and buried right here then where did they go?"
I would be happy to discuss facts even with neonazis, as long are they reality adjacent.
If it turns out that someone is full-bore genocide denialists (or praises Mao or claims that Pol Pot was a good leader or that there was no internal paedophilia conspiracy of any kind in Catholic Church or that there is no biological difference between males and females) then I will find better way to procrastinate.
Are you also denying that Germans were rapidly antisemitic? Are you denying deportation to ghettos? Are you denying deportation to concentration camps? Are you also denying murder of millions via shooting and starvation? (also Poles, Gypsies, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians and so on, Jews were less than half of victims of Holocaust). Are you denying that people in concentration camps were horrifyingly mistreated?
Also, are you a neonazi dear SS? Is your username shortening to SS coincidence or deliberate?
The post-war demographic data entirely comes from Soviet authorities
Not entirely. There were some many Jewish Poles that to detect that they almost entirely disappeared does not require reliable statistics. Entire communities disappeared, to the point that it was noticeable even in Poland where around 16% of population was murdered.
You are again being misleading. Populations of Jews in Poland (before they were murdered by Germans) was readily noticeable, it is not like COVID/vaccines where you need to rely on statistics to establish effects.
And for some weird reason they basically disappeared and by pure coincidence that happened during time when Germans invaded. And Germans had rabid hate toward Jews, even greater then toward Poles/Ukrainians which were supposed to be subjugated and enslaved.
Even if Germans imprisoned Jews in concentrations camps and starved there them to death, and gas chambers were entirely fake then it does not strongly change anything at all. OK, it reduces my opinion about historians. But surely it will not improve my opinion about Nazis.
Or are you denying that Germans were rapidly antisemitic? Are you denying deportation to ghettos? Are you denying deportation to concentration camps? Are you also denying murder of millions via shooting and starvation? (also Poles, Gypsies, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians and so on, Jews were less than half of victims of Holocaust). Are you denying that people in concentration camps were horrifyingly mistreated?
traveller
1yr ago
It is mostly intended as feedback to SS - in case they are interested why normies like me react to them as they react.
(especially as typical reaction may be based in the end on it, even if ends phrased as "go away")
It seems likely that they sincerely believe it, but topic and style and tactics they use makes them functionally a troll.
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