traveller
1yr ago
This also presents a problem because "the case" for the Holocaust entirely relies on witness testimony
This is a blatant lie, dear SS. Unless you claim that for example demographic statistics before (or after) war were falsified and demographics of Polish Jews were falsified before war and so on. To say nothing about Gypsies demographics that somehow for some reason cratered during WW II.
traveller
1yr ago
Thanks for linking, this case is especially atrocious.
I really agree with this comment and I agree also with some extra
I get more of an “all aboard! Next stop: Auschwitz!” vibe.
(...)
It's awful. I can't imagine being a visitor to Toronto and being greeted with this. Like an out-of-place Holocaust Memorial.
(...)
I stand here in the same clothes I wore yesterday, 38 years old, waiting for the same train I take every single day to my minimum wage job. Every aspect of my life is falling apart. I can barely afford my rent. The grocery store is stealing my retirement. And i'm at the edge of a mental breakdown.
But here I am. Facing a wall of depression that is my literal being, funded by own tax dollars. A very interesting piece of "art" indeed.
(...)
This art makes you want to succumb to the dangerously narrow passages near the tracks. We should start a petition to get it taken down. No art at all would be an improvement over this frosted glass suicide note
(...)
That's the subway station most inhabited by tourists. This is what we think represents Toronto. Depression. Death.
(...)
It's so ugly, so depressing, and even with the vaguest of linework, it still manages to be notably misogynist. The most detailed figure is a teenaged girl dancing around a pole, and she's further dehumanized by having her body outlined more sharply than anyone else's, but her face hidden, AND a yucky guy leering at her - who may be racialized as Black, just to be even more offensive. I despise everything about this.
(while last one is matching claims that are usually false here it mostly matches my own initial impression)
after Russia pulled back
After Russia was kicked out of areas it occupied/controlled by force. Large part of that conquests was result of alliance with Third Reich and Hitler.
the US expanding right into Eastern Europe
They were invited by nearly everyone for obvious reasons.
traveller
1yr ago
The high mortality at these camps liberated by the Western allies was caused by a collapsing German infrastructure as it was being destroyed in the final days of the war.
What you then claim what happened with Polish Jewish pre-war population? Are you also claiming that forcing Jews into ghettos by Germans was fake? Executing people across conquered territories?
I bet that there is plenty of propaganda (add "soap made from human fat" to that) but presenting in a way that claims "Germans have not mass-murdered millions" is even more misleading.
Also, is it intentional that your username in short is SS?
traveller
1yr ago
Yes, but I admit that it was one of my immediate thoughts. Maybe because it was depressing and pole is without any context? And in my areas public transport poles are not standalone in the middle but more bundled with other parts of the vehicle?
entirely owe their existence to Hitler's legacy
That is blatantly false, for multiple reasons. Dropping "entirely" would help a bit but still would be untrue.
And I am not calling for rolling back anything communist adjacent - I would not support undoing electrification of many rural areas of Poland on basis "it happened under communism". And I am not going to kill myself because I was born during communist rule. Or deconstruct motorways where construction started under Hitler.
But i would support undoing things done by Third Reich and USSR regimes that were unwanted.
Do you still hold their independence to be legitimate?
Yes.
You also know that Poland signed a nonaggression pact with the Third Reich, and took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia, don't you?
Yes. BTW, Trans-Olza is nowadays in Czechia.
traveller
1yr ago
And my general take is that Holocaust denialism/revisionism isn't so much a problem in and of itself as long as the person arguing it isn't trying to extend the argument to say "and therefore the Nazis weren't so bad" or, worse "and therefore we shouldn't worry about/take efforts to prevent future genocide attempts."
I admit that for me what triggers "go away, you nasty troll" is that their username shortens to SS.
Which takes turn to pissing on graves for me.
traveller
1yr ago
explicitly describe the "final solution" as the evacuation of the Jews to the East
Even if you interpret it in painfully positive way it still has explicitly (1) A majority of people will not survive this (2) The survivors will have to be "treated" as not to serve as a "gamete" for the reconstruction of European Judaism (3) Mixed children will, with some exceptions, be expelled, forced into "evacuation", or sterilised.
Calling it evacuation is extremely misleading and you know it. I bet that you would be really unhappy if you and your family would be "evacuated" in this way.
I wanted to respond to both people. Should I respond to one of them and hope that other will coincidentally see the other reply?
traveller
1yr ago
It is strange to accuse Revisionists of "moving the goalposts" when you refuse to defend the core elements of the mainstream narrative.
Personally I am not familiar with gas chambers details and I am unwilling to spend 20+ hours on research just to debate with neonazi on the internet on some obscure forum. Sorry SS if you are not a neonazi but I asked you multiple times about that and about origin of your username and you never responded so I assume that you are.
But I am far more certain that Germans murdered millions of people, many of them for being Jews. And that part is much, much easier to defend without spending overly long time to research this things.
So if you deny that Nazis murdered millions of people that is much easier thing to discuss for me, and if you do not deny then you would become more interesting to debate details. If you would deny that Germans forced Jews into ghettos then things would get even more obvious.
traveller
1yr ago
Documents show that these workers were very important for the war effort
Because Germans were famous for not-terrible-treatment of conquered areas where everyone had first-hand experience of USSR.
Oh wait, they were so terrible that people as result initially welcomed USSR as liberators (despite that things then went almost as bad as "liberation" by Third Reich). And put plenty of effort into sabotaging German war effort to help USSR.
Germans had hilariously poor treatment of potential recruits and workers, they actually believed that they as subhumans and failed to even pretend otherwise.
traveller
1yr ago
But i would support undoing things done by
whooops!
It was supposed to be "But i would support undoing things done by(...)"
traveller
1yr ago
russia would make peace.
Yeah, and sign peace promising respecting remaining part of Ukraine. Maybe it should be signed in Budapest and called Budapest Memorandum II ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum )
traveller
1yr ago
Mary Mallon would have been entirely justified to kill her captors and escape for by the point they imprisoned her in perpetuity they broke the social contract and returned her and themselves to the state of Nature.
I was unfamiliar with that but assuming that following is accurate I do not consider it as straightforward. And if you go "returned her and themselves to the state of Nature" then it anyway justifies using raw power to overpower everyone else anyway - and I do not think that it is in any way better.
Mary Mallon (September 23, 1869 – November 11, 1938), commonly known as Typhoid Mary, was an Irish-born American cook believed to have infected between 51 and 122 people with typhoid fever. The infections caused three confirmed deaths, with unconfirmed estimates of up to 50. She was the first person in the United States identified as an asymptomatic carrier of the pathogenic bacteria Salmonella typhi.[1][2] She persisted in working as a cook and thereby exposed others to the disease. Because of that, she was twice forcibly quarantined by authorities, eventually for the final two decades of her life. Mallon died after a total of nearly 30 years in isolation.[3][4]
(...)
She used fake surnames like Breshof or Brown, and took jobs as a cook against the explicit instructions of health authorities. No agencies that hired servants for upscale families would offer her employment, so for the next five years, she moved to the mass sector. She worked in a number of kitchens in restaurants, hotels, and spa centers. Almost everywhere she worked, there were outbreaks of typhoid.[35] However, she changed jobs frequently, and Soper was unable to find her.[13]
In 1915, Mallon started working at Sloane Hospital for Women in New York City. Soon 25 people were infected, and two died. The head obstetrician, Dr. Edward B. Cragin, called Soper and asked him to help in the investigation. Soper identified Mallon from the servants' verbal descriptions and also by her handwriting.
traveller
1yr ago
We shouldn’t just blindly accept the government narrative about war, in fact the default is better off being negative.
Europeans should be more scepticals but at least only small minority is failing for much lower quality Russian claims. So it is not a complete failure at least.
traveller
1yr ago
They don't check the color of your cooler either.
? can you explain this one? I am really confused here.
traveller
1yr ago
Russia has reasons to perceive expansion as aggression
I reject this part.
Though it would be accurate to treat it as a threat on Russian imperialism and pre-empting USSR 2.0. That is exactly why Poland and other joined NATO and Ukraine wanted to join.
Russia is not entitled to having an imperial sphere of influence.
traveller
1yr ago
Applying to join NATO doesn't automatically mean membership.
Well, yes. As can be seen from case of Ukraine.
And Ukraine also demonstrates how it ends if you fail to run away from Russian bear quickly enough.
traveller
1yr ago
I expect that they refer to deeper past than 1970. Though I lack knowledge here - from what I understand in sufficiently older times "who gets children after divorce" was irrelevant as there was no divorce.
traveller
1yr ago
Ukraine has also some resources, including not yet exploited gas fields.
traveller
1yr ago
Yes, any city dedicating a statue to its founder and leaving it to stand is a completely self-evident course of events. There's no need to back that up.
People disliking people murdering them is very natural. Disliking things associated with murderers is also generally obvious.
completely self-evident course of events. There's no need to back that up.
As demonstrated by Odessa residents it is not, where it was removed with broad local support.
traveller
1yr ago
Besides, where exactly is the evidence that the Baltic referenda in '45 on joining the USSR were rigged?
Is there any indicator that they were unique in being not rigged?
From quick look 1940 vote (after Russia invaded central Europe together with Nazi Germany) was blatantly rigged ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Parliament - Lithuania supposedly had 99.2% communist vote with 95.5% turnout, Estonia 92.2% and 81.6%, Latvia 97.6% and 94.7% )
Referendum in Poland run by USSR at that time was clearly falsified.
Why on Earth you would assume that USSR run elections in conquered country were not blatantly rigged?
(I admit that I have not found sources how 1945 were run or even good mention of them, but if Russians have not falsified them - then I would be really surprised)
If that's their basis for yelling "illegal government" then I think they need better evidence.
Being invaded is quite good evidence.
Needing to falsify elections is also a good hint.
Repeated protests that in 1991 were not crushed even by running over protestors with tanks are also quite good evidence.
People declaring independence as soon as Russia lost its power and trying to get away from it is also a good hint.
Any government who really dislikes their previous government can declare the preceding regime illegitimate/illegal and then do whatever the hell they want with people who became resident in the intervening times?
If previous government was result as invasion by oppressive regime, blatantly oppressed people and independence had clear support - then surely you can do this.
traveller
1yr ago
Would you slap your sister if she told you she was considering it, because you don't treat her right and she needs some of that self-care mmmh mmmh?
No, because slapping is a poor way to persuade people.
Also, if that would happen then thing went horrifying wrong before and I prefer actions taking far earlier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum has indicated that it works poorly with Russia.
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