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(I'm new, so I'm not sure if this is Culture War.)
Does anyone have any modern dating advice?
I'm interested in finding out what are the "real" rules that people operate under when it comes to dating, which might be different from the rules they ought to have or the rules they claim to have or the rules that they believe that they have (but subconsciously they use different rules). And of course the word "people" is very broad and presumably various subgroups operate in different ways, so I'd be happy for clarification on that point too. (And then of course individuals differ from the norms of the subgroups they belong to). Ideally I'd like to see some objective evidence, but personal experiences/impressions still count for something.
I identify with the difficulties in Scott's classic posts "Untitled" and "Radicalizing the Romanceless". Generally I'm paranoid about approaching women, because I feel like maybe they think I'm a creep and they're just too polite to say so. My biggest concern isn't that they dislike me per se; it's that maybe I've hurt the woman without realizing it. I'm very sensitive about that.
I've done dating sites and speed dating but I can't seem to find any connections. I should note that I have low self-esteem, so rejection is hard on me, which in turn makes it difficult to put myself out there. (Here's a question: How much time per week does the average single straight guy spend on dating sites etc., assuming he's actively looking for a date?)
I'm not a misogynistic incel, but whenever I talk about my dating woes a good portion of people feel the need to tell me "Don't be an incel!" when I haven't said or done anything remotely misogynistic. I figure the Motte is probably a good place to find people who understand my perspective.
I've been looking for dating advice recently, but everything seems contradictory. You're supposed to treat all people equally regardless of gender (which is great!), but at the same time you're supposed to conform to gender stereotypes and you should expect that most women will do the same. People tell me it sucks and it's not fair, but I'm the man and that means I have to initiate contact and get rejected a lot. They also tell me to be persistent but in the same breath they tell me not to be too persistent and it's not clear where to draw the line.
They tell me to be authentic but they also tell me to "fake it till you make it" and act like I'm a cool guy who dates people all the time. They tell me to express my feelings but they also tell me that "women can smell fear" so I should act confident even if I don't feel confident. They tell me to be honest but I've also had a (female) therapist suggest that I should tell some white lies to make myself more attractive. This woman gave a TED talk about her wonderful relationship with her husband (who sadly passed away) and she admits that the relationship began with lies: He falsely claimed to be a Fullbright Scholar to get her attention. Months later she found out the truth, but she was only angry for a short time. Ultimately, his lie made their whole relationship possible!
People tell me that women like it when you express interest in them, but also they think it's creepy. People tell me I must never express interest in a girl at her place of work, but the only relationship I had in the last 10 years began with that exact scenario, and the girl was flattered! (We eventually broke up, and since then I've also approached a few female coworkers at my own workplace, without success.) People tell me that if I show interest in a girl early on then I'm "too easy" and there's no "intrigue", so the appropriate thing is to give little hints about my feelings so she can pursue me. (In which case, apparently I'm taking the female role and she's taking the male role? I'm not offended by that; I'm just confused.)
People say that they met the love of their life on a dating app, but they also say that dating apps are trash and nobody likes them. (But even though everybody hates dating apps, apparently nobody can think of anything better to do.) People tell me it's ok to wear t-shits with the name of my favorite show or whatever (it displays my personality), but also I should never do that and the only way to be attractive is to wear solid colors with the occasional stripe.
One commenter on the Motte wrote "running a 'playing hard to get' game on a woman seems suboptimal. If you are looking for someone with whom you are authentically drawn to/compatible with, why set up these hoops or create a culture of deception within the relationship?", but in the next breath that same person wrote "it is also a risk to be overly eager. It's unattractive". But if I'm very attracted and I act like I'm only mildly attracted, doesn't that create a culture of deception within the relationship??
Long story short, I'm lost.
(And it surely doesn't help that I've got a long history of mental illness and isolation and thus I missed out on a lot of opportunities for social learning.)
I am actually bi, but in practice it's rare for a guy to get my attention, so I'm mostly concerned about how to approach women.
"Radicalizing" was written in 2014, and the advice at the bottom leads me to essays from 2001. It occurs to me that this might be woefully out of date.
Does anyone have any modern advice for me?
The advice given below is great, and a lot of it is probably from better daters than me, so I'll just throw out a couple random tips/comments that I think will be helpful.
-- Stop reading stuff like Radicalizing. Avoid content about how hard dating is, avoid content about how terrible modern women are. This isn't a judgment primarily on the accuracy/lack thereof of the content. It is mental hygiene. That kind of stuff will not make you better at this. There really exist women who will be interested in talking about interesting books/articles/poems/whatever, or at least they will pretend to be because your knowledge intimidates them, I know this from experience.
-- Learn to text well. The general advice to move to in person ASAP is good, but for various reasons I haven't followed it in years, I nearly always text extensively for days-weeks-months and the first time we meet up it is certainly to make love. Get off the app you met on asap to a full featured app like texting or telegram or snapchat*. Most people make the mistake of turning a text conversation into an endless series of Q&As hoping to hit it off. The best way to text well is to use pictures to bring observational humor and insights into your day. Look at this funny squirrel/advertisement/car I saw, wow I can't believe what I just read in the newspaper hear's a picture of the article. Ask for her advice on something, whether it's a small decision you are making or because "a friend" came to you for advice. This allows you to take the conversation in a different direction, and pictures are inherently more intimate, escalating towards pics of each other, toward increasingly intimate pics** etc. Aim to talk about your day and what is going on around you, not "what's your favorite song? :)"
-- Negging is mostly dead. Too many loser dudes who think it is just insulting women. Showing interest is a better expression of confident high value than hiding the ball. If your goal is to think and act like the hypothetical Alpha Male, then you express interest directly, because you don't need to play games, and you don't have time to. You tell her you want to sleep with her, because you know she will want to sleep with you, because it will be the best time of her life.
-- The first three women I slept with were, for all intents and purposes, practice. They had fun, I had fun, but I wasn't great. If I had met my wife first, we never would have hit it off, I would have fumbled it. They deserve partial credit for my later marriage.
-- Find how to make dating something you enjoy. Nothing is more attractive than someone who seems to be getting exactly what they want out of life, and the best way to show that is to be genuinely happy doing what you're doing. This is one area where fake it til you make it applies 100%: one of the classic Online Dating conversations is "lol online dating is wild right?" Don't ever bitch about women on the app. Tell stories about how well you are doing on the app, how women are crazy about you in funny ways, not ones about how you can't find a date to save your life or you keep getting ghosted or whatever.
-- The best first dates are expandable. They seem and are low commitment at first, but have options for progression as each stage goes well. Dinner/movie are bad because there's a distinct conclusory moment at which one of you has to make an affirmative decision as to what comes next. "Let's hop in my car and drive two hours to the beach" can be fun and spontaneous if it works, but it's too high of an initial commitment for most people. A walk through a street fair, art museum, interior city park, etc delivers both a framing activity and the natural "let's get a snack/drink/coffee/etc" value. The best dates are when everything just flows, no firm decisions are made but by the end it feels natural that you wound up in bed.
*snapchat completely sucks, but if the girl uses it it is what you get.
**Never, ever send a dick pic until she has specifically asked, nay begged, for one. She will.
How the hell is this workable? I had a few extended (month+) texting sequences end in pretty immediate clunks in person, that admittedly I probably should have vetted better with selfie swapping and social media stalking, and the sheer palpable letdownery of those engagements scared me away from letting things go longer than a week or so without a first meeting in person.
I've had pretty good luck with them. Can't speak to anyone else. There are plenty of duds that fade prior to meeting, and some that don't among to much after, but I've yet to run into one that was significantly below spec in person.
Generally tons of pics/videos are exchanged, phone calls and video calls are a good addition as well. I've yet to be disappointed in person, but I've definitely cut bait on or lost interest in people I started texting who were setting off my Spidey senses with how they took pics. (No social media, ever)
It might also have to do with my location, I'm sorta out in the country but within half an hour to an hour of many options, and two hours from an infinite supply. So maybe it works better for me because there's not the same expectation that we could meet tomorrow that there is in the same city?
I will say I once hit on a girl on Facebook, circa like 2010, who was just outside my friend circle. Showed up to her house to "watch a movie" and holy shit this girl was huge. I had to make an excuse to get out of there right away. In her pics she looked great!
I mean...are you a tall dude that looks like he could be a male model? Are you a multimillionaire with yacht pics? Famous? Or...are you okay with women twice your weight? If this guy ain't conventionally attractive he needs a million a year and enough charisma for a career in politics plus the body of a Greek God, otherwise he's decidin' where he wants the ambulances.
Okay, dude, this constant one-note refrain of "If you are not rich, tall and handsome you are doomed to settle for a morbidly obese chick there are no exceptions" is entering "egregiously obnoxious" territory. You are allowed to vent about your own personal lack of success with women (though the Wednesday Wellness thread would be better for it), and you are allowed to comment on dating as it relates to culture war, but "Only chads get acceptable women, everyone else has to settle for landwhales" requires more than just dropping it as a hot take.
I am sorry for not being insufficiently clear. For a lot of things, there are three (not two) levels. Rich, middle class, and poor. Attractive, average, and unattractive. Hell, strong as fuck, average, and puny. My intention wasn't to say the equivalent of "If you ain't rich, you're a hobo begging for spare change"; that is just straight up false. I meant to say that if you were unattractive (as distinct from average) your dating options sucked.
Also, there are exceptions. I knew one.
This took me less than two minutes to find and is just one example of you doing the exact thing you claim here that you're not doing, and going out of your way to be clear and explicit about it.
Also, I think much of the objection is not to the content but to the repetitiveness. Making a dozen to a score of posts saying essentially the same thing (including two substantively similar direct replies to the OP) in something on the order of 48 hours is pointless and obnoxious.
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