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I didn't really participate in the Israel-Gaza megathreads while they were live, for the same reason I don't participate in threads about crypto or YIMBYism: it wasn't a topic I knew much about, and I wasn't especially interested in educating myself. As an undergrad I'd attended a pro-Palestine march or two, and harboured some lingering vague, passive, semi-ironic anti-Zionist sentiment as a consequence; I was vaguely aware of the general contours of the history of the Israeli state (Six-Day War, USS Liberty, compulsory military service for men and women); I'd seen Waltz with Bashir many years ago; I recognised the names Netanyahu, Ariel Sharon, Yasser Arafat and PLO; and was under the general impression that a two-state solution would be in everyone's best interests, although I had absolutely no idea what this would look like in practice. While the megathreads were live, the word "Nakba" would have meant nothing to me, and I can't even say with confidence that I knew at the time that Gaza and the West Bank were non-contiguous.
I think my attitude of willing blissful ignorance changed when @ymeskhout posted his article "The Jewish Conspiracy to Change my Mind" and its followup. Like me, he approached the topic of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from a position of relative ignorance, and after doing some research came away far more sympathetic to the Israelis than the Palestinians.
While Israel-Gaza may not have had much staying power on the Motte as the Current Thing™ (there were only four megathreads posted a week apart), it's been a fairly durable Current Thing™ in the popular discourse, and looks to remain that way for the foreseeable, perhaps at least as long as the Ukraine war did before it. As a result of this, it's hard to avoid encountering new perspectives on the conflict, and I'm finding myself reading countless articles about it every week. Wary of echo chamber dynamics, I'm making a conscious effort to force myself to read articles which are less sympathetic to the Israelis. I've found Freddie deBoer's takes unnecessarily combative and employing some rather queasy Fanon-esque mental gymnastics, but found Sam Kriss's articles on the topic to be some of the best of his I've read. I admire that he's demonstrated an ability to do what so many outspoken anti-Zionists seem unable or unwilling to do: express deep-seated sympathy for the Palestinian cause, up to and including denying the right of the state of Israel to exist, while also acknowledging the shocking brutality of Hamas's combat tactics and condemning them without reservation.
One such Kriss post, "Against the Brave", takes as its thesis that both the Israelis and Palestinians should be ashamed of the horrific, unspeakable cruelties they've inflicted on one another over the decades, and that a shared acknowledgement and a shared shame is the only path towards reconciliation. I noticed that this post was liked by @ymeskhout himself, which got me wondering if, seven months into this conflict, his attitudes have changed since he wrote his "Jewish Conspiracy" posts. More broadly, have any of you changed your minds on any key aspects of the conflict since October 7th? Did any of you think a two-state solution was viable within a generation, but no longer think so (or vice versa)? Has the conflict changed your opinion of Netanyahu, for better or worse?
(Sorry in advance for double posting)
I really do agree with Kriss here. As a Jew I find Jewish self-pity nauseating and embarrassing, but even more than that I find it kind of humiliating. But it’s important to note that many Israelis would agree with him too.
Israel was not borne of Jewish self-pity. Crying about how the goyim are oppressing us is, after all, probably the oldest diaspora Jewish pastime. You can find thousands of examples of it over the centuries, from medieval England to 17th century Iran, from the Old Testament to the shtetl. Diasporic Jewish writing for much of the last millennium, in both the Middle East and Europe, often accepted gentile torment as either just punishment by God, or just as an unfortunate reality of the test imposed by God on earth in anticipation of the world to come. Efforts to actually end that victimhood were limited to individual community success stories in some countries at some times, but little else.
Israel was a response to that, an effort to break free of it, to not be victims again and forevermore.
Sure, it is true that some of Israel’s supporters use the ‘historical oppression’ angle to justify Zionism. Personally I find that distasteful, though I understand that in the modern western progressive milieu an oppressed victimhood framework is pretty much the only acceptable one. But the actual core of the idea is quite different. It’s a commitment against self-pity, an acknowledgment of the hard ways of the world, an acceptance that while spiritual salvation and religious purity have their value, they are insufficient when it comes to survival in our earthly lives.
Yes, I agree completely. I'm on a mailing list for Jews at my company and the neurosis makes me sick to my stomach sometimes. People talking about the latest microaggression, dredging up old trauma, people talking about where to move if/wheb the US gets uninhabitable for Jews - it's ridiculous. The USA remains a great place to be Jewish, the place that seems most likely to remain so, and if it doesn't, there comes a time to plant your feet in your homeland and make a stand.
Our one was very inactive, a few people posting about challah baking, some orthodox people who work in back office trade functions in NYC/NJ posting Torah readings or rebbe quotes, and Israelis in the engineering team posting about Israeli EDM/techno/whatever. Political discussion is discouraged but unfortunately ours has just become “hope you guys are feeling safe, here are some mental health resources” concernposting since October 7th.
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