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Culture War Roundup for the week of October 3, 2022

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The answer is no, they don't know it will make it "suck" because they don't care if someone who's read the Silmarillion doesn't like what they did to Tolkien's lore. Nobody else (sigma the tiny, tiny percentage of the audience who's read the Silmarillion) cares either. MCU movies aren't made for you, the middle-aged dude who has boxes of X-Men and Avengers comics from the 80s in your cave. They are made for the new viewers they want to attract.

Yes, this is their attitude, and it is objectively wrong. Wide appeal never works without hardcore buy in. The hardcores are the tastemakers of virtually every IP, perhaps rom-coms excepted, I don't know much about that area. "But League of Legends" you will exclaim. Well, first DOTA2 is still incredibly successful despite being punishingly hardcore, and second, its weird you aren't touting the overwhelming success of the super casual Heroes of the Storm, which even had the benefit of tons of loved characters! Fact is, it was way too casual, it couldn't succeed even with you being able to make Jim Raynor fight Diablo and Arthas fight Kerrigan. LOL is the example of what you want to do, balance hardcore appeal and skill expression with the ability to be a bit casual. This is actually what early MCU did. Hardcores enjoyed Iron Man and Captain America. Hardcores don't enjoy She Hulk, and its tanked.

Yes, this is their attitude, and it is objectively wrong.

Citing a few anecdotal examples does not equate to "objectively wrong." But I suspect we'd end up arguing over every IP to be examined and debating to what degree the "hardcore" fans did or didn't like it. I mean, I'd point out that Black Panther and the Guardians of the Galaxy were C-listers who were almost unknown to anyone but hardcore Marvel fans before the movies. If you think those productions, or any others, stood or fell based on the enthusiasm of aging comic book fans, I think you are deluded.

I have not watched She-Hulk, only read reviews and summaries, which convinced me it was badly written and full of characters getting up on soapboxes and pandering to the presumed sensitivities of the audience, which is, again, bad writing. It didn't fail because it was "too woke," it failed because the wokeness appears to substitute for actual dialog and characterization.

A lot of the conversation here seems to be a combination of hardcore fans desperately wanting the studios to believe their opinions are important, and people desperately wanting to find evidence that "go woke, get broke" is true.

Meanwhile, what actually determines success is almost always mass appeal, which correlates only loosely to quality (some very good movies bomb, though usually of the more artsy variety, while the dreadful Michael Bay continues to print money, even if his most recent venture fell a little flat because it didn't feature giant robots), and what motivates studios is making money, with wokeness and social agendas being tolerated because you always have to let the creatives have their little causes while they make money.

It didn't fail because it was "too woke," it failed because the wokeness appears to substitute for actual dialog and characterization.

Inconveniently for your argument, these are the things hardcores enjoy and complain about the lack of when absent.

Inconveniently for your argument, these are the things hardcores enjoy and complain about the lack of when absent.

Everyone enjoys dialog and characterization and complains about its lack when absent. Are you using some definition of "hardcore fan" that means basically "people with any degree of taste"?

Hardcores are among the only people in that set, yes.

That wasn't my question, but believing only trufans care about dialog and characterization and other markers of quality is not an uncommon affectation.

I'm saying hardcores are the most turned off by lack of quality. And among non-hardcores there are a much higher % that don't care about quality.

I'm saying hardcores are the most turned off by lack of quality.

Are they? Hardcore fans can be very persnickety, but they'll also grade their favorite IPs on a curve. This is the sort of thing where it's hard to generalize with confidence, but I've been involved in Star Wars fandom since I was like twelve, and looking back one of the things that stands out is the extent to which me and my fellow Star Wars devotees would heap praise on material that would struggle to get a passing grade if it didn't have "Star Wars" on the cover.

My personal experience also matches this take.

I can enjoy media related to my favorite IPs that are objectively mediocre or even bad in various ways, as long as the IP itself is treated well by the media.