site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 2, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Let’s talk about Matrix/Element.

With the Telegram CEO getting gotten and Twitter being banned, you may have heard Matrix/Element shilled as a potential alternative platform for communication. There’s also talk of interoperable messaging in Europe, and the pipedream of Matrix being involved. Unfortunately, Matrix/Element is a dead end, but it’s worth talking about. Information gathered from lurking Matrix discussions as well as private DMs.

I

In 2016, the folks at New Vector ltd. decided to make an end-to-end encrypted and federated instant messaging service. They created Riot.im (now known as Element), which communicated over a new protocol they called Matrix. Under the Matrix protocol, users on independent homeservers could communicate with each other, similar to Mastodon/ActivityPub. Also similarly, independent implementations of the protocol are able to communicate in the network. Like Misskey can communicate with Mastodon, apps such as FluffyChat can use Matrix to communicate with Element.

New Vector struggled to get Element off the ground, first positioning it as a Slack alternative. They even snapped up the declining Github-centric im service Gitter and subsequently did nothing as the entire userbase fled to Discord and Slack. When that failed, Vector pivoted to providing bespoke encrypted services to government spooks including shipping white-labeled walled gardens and trying to make Element a Zoom competitor. With a steady source of Cash, the Vector team lost interest in the rest of us. From the CEO himself:

... [Y]ou need to understand that Element has ended up making payroll by selling messaging apps to people like the UN, NATO and the French and German governments. And they value other things (reliable encryption; performant apps; UX which outperforms WhatsApp) more than building a Discord killer.

II

So where does Matrix come in? The Matrix protocol was supposed to be federated and Vector felt that adoption of the protocol with Element as the flagship client would be good PR. Vector set up the Matrix foundation with the goal of promoting federation in an ecosystem by offering the promise of an open protocol. The foundation was also put in charge of the “matrix.org” homeserver - ostensibly a peer to many homeservers but the de-facto hub for reasons that will be explained below. What the Matrix Foundation wasn’t given was the power or directive to implement features actually needed for growth. Something as basic as sharing an invite with someone off Matrix is something that’s impossible to this day. And even with Vector recently abandoning any interest in Element as a social platform, the Matrix Foundation has categorically refused to endorse an alternative (non-Element) app run by a team that cares more about growth.

They had a little bit of success in getting a few open source communities to dip their toes in, but it was fleeting. Unfortunately with a lagging featureset and inscrutable onboarding process, Matrix floundered while Discord, Telegram, and WhatsApp launched to the moon. Only the deplorables kicked off of Discord flocked to Matrix, most notably sharers of CSAM content. With a complete lack of algorithmic ranking and constant churn of discussions that fizzle out because they can’t onboard new members, the server has become a graveyard filled with unpleasant and illegal land mines.

Is there any hope for the Matrix protocol? Can any other servers step in where the Matrix Foundation failed?

The problem is the Matrix federation protocol doesn’t actually work! It can’t even ensure two servers think the same members are in a particular room, which has obvious consequences. As a result there isn't a single large community on Matrix with substantial participation over federation. While other homeservers exist, they effectively act as independent islands with communication happening between server members and little to no productive traffic transiting to other servers.

The Matrix Foundation is now a zombie, created to evangelize a protocol (that doesn’t work!) that is de-facto controlled by a company no longer interested in federation. It dutifully works on “trust and safety” to hide the CSAM so they can keep their matrix.org server running, a server which is a graveyard of dead discussions devoid of any meaningful discussion not about Matrix itself.

III - CW topics for discussion

  • With the biggest tech platforms becoming explicitly left-wing, the space for the grey and red tribes online has shrunk. Federated solutions such as Matrix and Mastodon seem like a tempting way to escape censorship, but are plagued with organizational and technical problems. Witches may find respite in these places, but only because the admins are too incompetent to successfully carry out a witch hunt. Twitter orienting itself as a free-speech platform may be the only whitepill for the current generation of deplorables.

  • Does the restriction of compliance tools such as photodna to major players act as regulatory capture against smaller players? Posting known CSAM on Discord or any other major platform will result in an instant permaban. Upstarts and deplorables don’t have the privilege of accessing these tools.

  • What is the future picture of interoperable messaging? Is it an email-like level of federation? EU has mandated interoperability but will it promote free speech or stamp it out? (anyone want an unhinged rant about "RCS"?)

  • The willful refusal to implement table stakes features in order to pursue differentiation at all costs. (invites, emojis/stickers, user statuses, cosmetics) The Slack competitors Chime by Amazon and Hangouts Chat by Google both fell victim to this, actively refusing (I have inside knowledge of this) to pursue feature parity with slack despite having blank-check level resources. I think this says something about human nature.

  • The baggage of the broken protocol has been a deadweight on the team, but momentum has the team papering over the problem with additional layers and proxies. Vector's cash cow, bespoke white-label encrypted apps for government agents, benefits literally nothing from federation. Yet these apps carry the vestigial protocol like an albatross around their necks.

Edit:

You might think "I've used Element casually and it pretty much mostly works, so it's fine" but that's missing the point. A messaging service needs to work on the first try, every time. And even if Matrix can send 99% of your messages fine, and let 99% of people join your channel, that 1% sends it directly to the garbage heap. And Matrix can't work every time.

Telegram only went down once in its entire 10+ year history, and besides that outage, not one single message for anyone in the world was shown as delivered that wasn't delivered and viewable by every member of the group.

If you want secure - threema or signal (they both have weaknesses, but are top tier)

If you want less secure with dubious E2E - whatsapp and viber

If you want only Putin to read your messages - Telegram

If you don't care at all - instagram/facebook

If you want to have no one to talk to - everything else