This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
In Newton, Massachusetts, a pro-Palestinian man got into a shouting match with a group of pro-Israeli demonstrators across a busy street. For some reason, though he was mostly exchanging words with a woman, he ran across the street and tackled a man named Scott Hayes, who was also part of the demonstration. While he had Hayes on the ground, Hayes -- who had a legal gun -- shot him in the stomach. Two other pro-Israeli demonstrators pulled the man off Hayes, and he was later brought to a hospital.
Hayes was arrested and charged with Assault and Battery with a Dangerous Weapon and Violation of a Constitutional Right Causing Injury. The only justification I can come up with for the latter is that it is the constitutional right of pro-Palestinian people to attack people supporting Israel.
Hayes will certainly plead self defense, but self-defense expert Andrew Branca at Legal Insurrection says it won't work. Basically the government's view is if someone has tackled you and is beating on you, it's not sporting to fight back with a weapon (i.e. deadly force). Think of government as the two guys who hold you while their buddy punches you.
This was all captured on video (linked in the Legal Insurrection article); there's really no doubt as to the course of events.
To add insult to injury, the pro-Palestinian man has not been charged.
(Hayes, BTW, is reportedly not Jewish)
There's a real risk of dying if you are tackled onto pavement. Young healthy people die every day from less acute trauma. The tackler should be charged with the crime they committed.
But I'm comfortable asserting the appropriate (and 'legal' I suppose although I don't care about that) response to being tackled onto the pavement at a political protest is not to immediately shoot your tackler multiple times in the gut.
It wasn't out of nowhere, it wasn't the middle of the night, they weren't all alone, the attacker wasn't slamming Hayes' head into the pavement repeatedly - a George Zimmerman situation this is not.
Also:
No, the reality that 'two other pro-Israeli demonstrators' were readily available to pull off the attacker means the tackled fella was not in danger of his life after surviving the initial impact with the ground.
Yeah, great point. I wouldn't convict this guy in court if you offered to pay me. I wouldn't have been at the protest, but I can put myself in the mindset and I might've shot the tackler too. Still, it's not absurd to me to have an arrest, investigation, and probably trial about this incident.
To that point - this guy bailed out for 5k and is facing 10 years max. I have more than one buddy who had bail set with a 0 behind this guys for things like repeat DUI or possession. I personally know at least one guy that was offered a plea deal for 12 years after DUI with injury and after a financial black hole of lawyering is serving 8.
In summary, if someone tackles you onto the pavement in the middle of the night when no one else is around and they start pounding your head into the pavement - by all means protect yourself by all available means! If someone tackles you in broad daylight and your buddies immediately start pulling him off you and you shoot him twice anyway - I would not take your case!
(I am not particularly predisposed toward charity for the argument 'trauma from the Holocaust made me do it' - but apparently Hayes doesn't even that going for him...)
Dude, come on, that's a bit much.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link