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Cultural Marxism seems to be a subject that starts discussions here from time to time (this is the latest example, I guess), and one conclusion I came away with from these is that apparently many Blue Tribers are convinced that the concept is nothing but a neofascist myth, similar to how the same group dismisses "political correctness" as something not real and instead existing in nowhere else but the imagination of GOP propagandists.
Anyway, it's not like I want to reinvent the wheel here, but I propose a simple concept to differentiate cultural Marxism from economic Marxism. For the sake of argument, let's assume that both Marxist tendencies actually exist, although I understand that this is a very big jump for the leftists mentioned above. Instead of observing what these tendencies argue, let's look at how they find purchase in society, to the extent that they do.
Economic Marxism seeks supporters by appealing to the economic grievances of marginalized groups in predominantly right-wing hierarchical social environments.
"How is it possible that I'm working my ass off yet still remain nothing but a poor shmuck while assholes who never worked a day in their life drive around in fancy cars and fancy clothes?!"
"When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then the gentleman? From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men." (John Ball)
It's not difficult to see why economic Marxism lost most of the allure it ever had: the people who keep appealing to such grievances are no longer the Marxists. This has multiple causes of its own, but I won't try going into this here.
Cultural Marxism, on the other hand, seeks supporters by appealing to the cultural grievances of marginalized groups in predominantly right-wing hierarchical social environments.
"Why is everyone in this town such a homophobic garbage Nazi shithead? I bet they'd start pelting me with rocks if I tried walking down Main Street holding hands with my BF."
"I'm from Alabama and my pal got thrown out of the house by his shitty Fundamentalist parents just for being gay and trans. Why is it such a cesspool, man?!"
"Everytime I visit family I get cold stares and they keep pestering me when am I finally getting married. I'm done with these fuckers."
"Why is it still considered normal here for shitbag rednecks to drive around flying the Confederate flag? I can't even."
The predominantly right wing environments is wrong and there is an inaccuracy in "marginalized communities". We should select a description that is less biased in favor of the cultural marxist lingo.
Cultural Marxists are very willing to keep pandering to the same favorite groups, if they aren't marginalized and if the hierarchy favors them. The narrative is one of marginalized communities and right wing heirarchy, but you can, and in fact it is the increasing model, of increasing cultural marxism with the communities not being marginalized. If they marginalize disfavored groups, you will not see the kind of people called cultural marxists, reversing cause.
If a space becomes less diverse, by becoming more black, and less white, you won't sdee them complain.
In fact, your definition seems to accept the assumptions of cultural marxists.
I would say that cultural marxists are those who are biased in favor of progressive favored groups, of intersectional alliance, such as blacks, Jews, women, LGBT, and more, are identitarians in favor of such groups, on the basis of deeming them oppressed, and favor the destruction, or disminishment, with especially hostile against whites, and are also hostile against men, straight, etc, treating an environment that favors them, or is even even handed, as inherently oppressive and an example of the crisis of misogyny, antisemitism, racism (agaisnt blacks). It is about those who are dogmatic and see as heroic favoring such groups and a reforms in that direction.
It is about the presumption of ism being against those groups. So your quoted definition is great if one says that a cultural marxism is someone who makes that presumption. But inaccurate, if you use that definition on face value.
Where there is some difference between more naked tribalism, although I consider cultural marxism, to be fairly seen as progressive supremacist, and supremacist movement of supremacists for those groups and against their outgroup is that there is an argument that promotes disingenius one sided critique and promotes a motte of against identity politics, inequalities. Then they change it, to favor superior treatment for their favorite groups.
Some do this while arguing for the destruction of their outgroup, and painting them as nazi evil threat for opposing their own self destruction.
Another element, is the utopian dream that after destroying their white, or heteronormative, or any combination of identities they are against, they will reach an utopian without racism, or oppression. There is a certain egalitarian pretense, or belief at least with some of the less well off groups. But cultural Marxism is not sincerely egalitarian.
The most pervasive cultural marxist ideology is on areas of ethnicity and race in the USA. Elsewhere it is more complciated.
It is the people who see men rights activism, white nationalism, transphobia, homophobia, etc, etc as a great evil and are incapable of seeing whether a certain level of rights and interests for men, whites, straights, etc, and moves that can limit and go against a certain level of rights they favor for such groups. Basically they don't care for any compromise with the interests and rights, of those groups and with the right wing opposition who identify with such interests.
There is also continuity with historical marxism that shared cultural marxist elements, even if in weaker proportion and had in it an element of destroying the family, or nation, and also had these kind of biased tribalists among its ranks. Even if this element was a weaker part of it. Modern actual marxists have often adopted cultural marxist beliefs or be even more hardcore for them.
Calling liberals with the title cultural marxists would be a fair, and accurate description and not at all uncharitable. They are just going to be displeased about this, because they want to potray themselves as moderates and their opposition as extremists. And obviously they are very willing to censor and fight to not let us have an accurate picture of this. And other groups like most leftists who don't self describe as liberals agree with cultural marxism but might disagree with liberals on some things, fake conservatives who share this bias and hostility. Some fake conservatives are actually especially cultural marxists in their rhetoric, who are basically the version of cultural marxism that tries to be more consistent with the motte but still fails to be consistent and still is biased in favor of progressive identity groups and tolerates them in the manner that doesn't right wing ones.
A cultural leftist is in fact a cultural marxist. Cultural leftism cannot be seperated with cultural marxism. Marxism is central to leftism. Modern liberalism is cultural marxism. And it is very pervasive. We live in very cultural far left times.
There are elements associated with liberalism that aren't cultural marxism, that some right wing edgy figures might not like, although modern liberalism and really historical liberalism has its own blame which gave ground to socialism also failed to be consistent with those and isn't fair to give it ownership of those exclsusively. Especially when they undermined say natural rights. For example, lets take human rights. Cultural marxists rely on their interpretation of human rights, but it is possible to have one that isn't cultural marxist and still value human rights, and even despise cultural marxists for the harm they do towards genuine human rights, by promoting fake ones.
Their rhetoric is less important, the most important element of cultural marxism is the bias in favor of the identities they favor, the bias against the identity they disfavor, their complete disregard of the rights and interests of those groups and how they prioritise their dogma in favor of reducing nations, (which they aren't consistent about and target particularly their outgroup nations and make exception for their ingroup nations), gender roles, masculine and female duties and obligation, in a manner that is destructive to society.
However, while cultural marxism is an illegitimate, ironically it is a very ist ideology that distorts the situation, it is possible in a limited way and not the limitless maximalist way cultural marxists push, in certain circumstances, for some of the groups cultural marxists, are biased in favor, to be mistreated. Currently it is the opposite problem at play, because of the influence of cultural Marxists.
Wokeness can also be used to describe it. Or really identify it as the new left ideology which grew from important elements of the old left.
There is an interesting question about whether someone who isn't a cultural marxist in some other areas but is a super hardcore SJW type behaving individual when it comes to one of those groups, and shares the core ethnic enemy of the progressive intersectionally, most notably and usually in my experience of American online discourse, is for the Jews, but one sees it with Muslims who are tribalist for themselves, carry those grievances and share the enemy, but don't like Jews. Are they part of cultural marxism? Mostly yes. Ideological purity is less important than the fact that they are part of the intersectional team and have the same enemy.
There are also people who are part of the intersectional alliance, who are more sadistic, hateful, openly tribalist, and don't buy into this idea that they are fighting against oppression, even if cynically they might pretend to do so. They know that by not tolerating identity politics of the outgroup, they are harming it and creating a caste that favors them and they like that. That they belong in the same team and are even more hardcore in harming the out group, is more important than whether they buy into the idea, that they are fighting "oppression".
Finally, just cause some cultural marxists who agree that it is morally superior to favor the groups they favor and to disfavor the groups they disfavor, disagree with the rhetoric of other more edgy cultural Marxists, or with how far they push some things, doesn't make the first to belong in a different faction. Especially if the first are putting on a mask and pretending to be against nobody, while the later are saying the quiet thing loud. Like compare Noel Ignatiev, or people cheering that X European country will no longer exist and they are colonizing it, with someone who shares Noel Ignatiev position that opposing this is white supremacy, but uses weaker rhetoric.
At the end of the day compromising with right wing identitarians and giving extreme far righters too, what they want on the issue of their own people and favorite groups not being screwed over, is the obvious limited requirement for someone to not be a cultural marxist. If you are unwilling not to screw over white people, or men, or other groups that are disfavored by progressive paradigm, and you deny the legitimacy of their collective rights, then that qualifies as cultural Marxism, especially if you see such compromise as giving nazis what they want.
So is about a bias for progressive identities, and against disfavored groups, especially favoring destruction of those. People not compromising with the legitimate rights and interests and therefore sharing ground with negatively symbolized right wing associated groups and advocates. Another element is whether those with such biases are unwilling to consider whether their dogma wrecks society.
There is a huge connection between excessive social liberalism in general and cultural Marxism, and again being sufficiently conservative is a requirement to be a moderate, and not be a cultural marxist. Because cultural Marxism, excessive social liberalism includes in its agenda, breaking down important identities and roles and responsibilities that help keep society working (even though cultural Marxism has double standards and the bias of cultural Marxists is the most important element of it).
People just want to both be excessive on the left on such areas, (including people who choose to claim that they are conservatives and conservatives must compromise more to appeal to women, and insert ethnic group and LGBT types) and to have the fame of the even handed moderate, or of the conservative.
Liberalism and much of leftism does not work in isolation as a goal to strive upon, but in combination with conservatism, and must exist in a limited manner. Same with the interests of the groups cultural Marxists favor, and limiting the rights and interests of the groups they disfavor. Cultural Marxism is very extreme on the later, acting as if their rights and interest are inherently illegitimate, under the false pretense, that identity politics and interests are illegitimacy Sympathy for other groups must be balanced with concentric circles of concern, and objectivity. The idea of constantly progressing and moving in a more left wing direction that lead to Cultural Marxism is like swallowing ten packages of panadol to get rid of a headache, because in a limited quantity it would help with a genuine problem.
Based on the last year's events, I can think we can comfortably say that Jews don't fall into that list. In fact, I'm pretty sure Jews haven't been on there since what, the 60s?
Among those who play the oppression olympics game, Jews are super-whites.
The opposite, among those who play oppression games, Jews, who are a key progressive associated group and strongly as a pattern, especially the most influential Jews supporters of cultural marxism might even be the champions of being oppressed and deserving superior treatment because of this.
In the latest year the powerful jewish organisations, and stakeholders have been pushing the mighty and powerful to intimitate opposition and to promote an one sided story of Jews being oppressed in the American congress.
You are doing the thing that is the epitome of cultural marxism, of acting as the group you favor is always oppressed, regardless of all the power and fanatics biased in favoring them and screwing over others. Lets just say that SJW/cultural marxists in favor of Jews are some of the worst and more influential ones but there are definetly some who disfavor Jews in favor of Muslims and others who want to keep both groups not hate each other too much and favor both sides cooling off that hostility, but still support the ADL and friends narrative about antisemitism.
Based on what I explained above, your perspective fits cultural marxism for being so incredibly biased in favor of Jews that you promote the idea of Jews as oppressed, a 50 Stalin type of statement. Of course Jews are benefiting and remain a core part of far left progressive supremacist alliance. And core participants of the game "I oppose identity politics.. but actually for my outgroup". And in general the meme of antisemitism, is precisely a part of the cultural marxist idea of promoting justice by favoring this oppressed group that is under threat of being victimized and oppressing the oppressors.
As per my definition of cultural marxism, a bias, a lack of objectivity, and a permanent dogmatic mentality in favor of such groups is an important component and this applies towards Jews. Also important to note, it is not incompatible with being a jewish chauvinist who uses right wing language in terms of Israel, or even identifies as a Jewish supremacist, and being a cultural marxist. The cultural marxist faction is more pro zionist than has anti zionists. The who/whom is more important to cultural marxism, than any consistency.
To be very clear here, I am not going to pretend that cultural marxists are correct, and aren't biased, and such issues are a mystery. Nor will pretend that core groups of their alliance, probably the most important one, are somehow oppressed by them. It is simply a reversal of reality where black Americans and Jews are oppressed by the system. The Cancel culture contrarilly favors them. This is the reversal of reality that is Cultural Marxism 101.
It is also true that Jewish reputation has deservingly suffered in the current circumstances, and sure some people who dislike them might also be part of the intersectional alliance and might oppose them because they are Muslim chauvinists.
That was a confusing sentence to read (grammatically, I mean). But I think you meant that Jews tend to support the oppressor/oppressed dynamic, is that right?
Jewish organisations may be lobbying for their group to be considered part of the 'oppressed' coalition in America, but it isn't working.
67% of 18-24 year olds answered yes to the question 'Do you think that Jews as a class are oppressors and should be treated as oppressors or is that a false ideology?'
60% of the same age group answered yes to the question 'Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians and the kidnapping of another 250 civilians can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified?'
And crucially, 79% of this cohort agree with the statement 'There is an ideology that white people are oppressors and nonwhite people and people of certain groups have been oppressed and as a result should be favored today at universities and for employment. Do you support or oppose this ideology?'
That is to say, among people who believe in the progressive stack of opressor and oppressed (young people), Jews are considered more as oppressors than oppressed.
It is working in terms of what enough of the establishment supports and actionable wins through censorship, support of powerful figures in congress, cancel culture. Much of the American establishment is etrmely woke, and quite pro Jewish, and pro Jewish authoritarian at that.
Woke inc, and liberal establishment is Jewish supremacist. Not just them, you have congress adopting very extreme and one sided definitions of antisemitism. The facts are such that it isn't really a speculative issue.
That in a poll, young people consider Jews oppressors, the same young people consider white people to be oppressors to a higher percentage, doesn't negate this. Indeed, there are Muslims who hate Jews and are also cultural marxists and support for the most part the intersectiona alliance.
Such issues at best makes the situation somewhat more nuanced, but Jews are not just a core component of the present progressive supremacist/cultural marxist agenda, but have been extremely important from the start. The Black/Jewish alliance, the Jewish grievance in its own right being cultural marxism oppressor, oppressed, and the Jewish role in these movements from the very begining as they developed in 20th century. Which it self was an evolution, or devolution if you prefer of previous movements, but which have gotten their particular development in 20th century in important part due to Jewish contributions.
The reality is that you show an obvious bias and want to potray Jews as oppressed, even when they are wildly overepresented and it is taboo to note and oppose this.
You even use that poll to also promote this idea of Jews as oppressed, neglecting the favoritism in their favor, and also how their white Christian outgroup interests and rights are denied on the basis that they threaten Jews and they are antisemitic.
Nor should we forget the fact that Jews are at about 70% supporting the Democrats (which are very much pro Israel) and the left. This is a very liberal group which ideologically agrees with cultural marxism and wants Jews to benefit from it in the oppressed/oppressor dichotomy. Considering how compromised non liberals have been with the excess of liberalism, that doesn't mean the rest are moderate. American Jews are polled even lower than black Americans, at only 30% to support the preservation of European civilization in the USA, so in certain ways they poll more to the left, and more hostile to European Americans, than even black Americans.
Rejecting the logic that Jews are oppressed and right wingers, and white Christians are the oppressors and the later have no right to support their own nations, and oppose Jews when they disrespect them, would be a way of escaping the cultural marxist logic on this issue.
Cultural marxist Jewish grievances are a part of an intersectional alliance, today. If tomorrow, this alliance completely breaks over, I doubt the Jewish grievances against the common oppressor would be gone, as its own faction but it would be at least an interesting development to see civil war among the cultural marxists. It hasn't happened yet, but there are some weak elements of conflict today.
It is possible for groups of such alliance to promote grievances against other intersectional groups too. When there is infighting among cultural marxists, the wrong thing to do is to side with one group, and reinforce their narrative of oppression that they use against their common enemy.
I think you're talking past me. The sole point I was making was that Jews are not part of the progressive stack of oppressed identities among Cultural Marxists. Whether the Jewish-Israeli lobby is particularly powerful in the US is irrelevant.
It's possible for Jews to be considered an oppressor class by these people and also have the US government be very pro-Israel, because most Democratic congressmen are not hardcore wokes, even if they do tolerate it as an ideology.
You clearly think that Jews are too influential in American politics, fine. You're not the only guy on this forum who doesn't like Jews. But your statement that they are considered part of the progressive stack with all the other intersectional identities obviously isn't true.
As I addressed your point directly, it is blatantly and unquestionably true that Jews are beneficiaries of DEI policies and far leftists who are zionists are key part of the establishment and promote progressive stack that benefits the Jews. You insisting this isn't the case, doesn't change the fact that Jewish identity is promoted in colleges.
The Democrats are hardcore pro woke, and your attempt to cover up for the Jewish supremacist, woke types, is it self telling.
The reality is that a far leftist who is pro Jewish, hates right wingers, white people and Christians, like Jonathan Greenblat, is a core part of the cultural marxist coalition. This is a point you act as if it hadn't been made, because you want to deny it.
A great deal of Jews do this themselves and as part of their progressive ideology includes opposition to what they call antisemitism, in the same way biased racists in favor of blacks, or feminists complain about racism and misogyny. The Jewish lobby uses the cultural marxist oppressor, oppressed for the Jews benefit and for Israel and against right wingers and white Christians.
They are also willing to use such power against pro Palestinian leftists who include cultural marxists. But they are not the only cultural marxists, and are of less influence and significance today.
This idea that groups like ADL are irrelevant and far leftists who are also Jewish supremacists exist in only our fantasy, is a completely preposterous claim. You wanting to bypass such issues, including the congress adopting ridiculously broad definitions of antisemitism, is a case, of you not wanting to acknowledge this.
American Jews, as a pattern are happy to combine progressivism with Jewish identity politics, and so this extends beyond just the establishment.
This distortion of reality to paint groups like Jews as always marginalized is very much a characteristic of what makes cultural marxism such a damaging ideology. And it also extends beyond just the Democrats. There are instances of nominally claiming to be right wing parties have sided both in isolation and in combo with left wing identity politics, privilidging such groups at expense of their own base.
To the extend there has been a civil war among woke, the pro Jewish wokes have been winning, and you are both denying their existence while also being blatantly on their side.
This is the classic cultural marxist response. Dismissing the whole issue and framing it as people being just haters and the implication being unfairly picking up on such groups. Ironically, those who promote this perspective are those who are hateful and show a dislike towards other groups and towards people who make valid claims, because they are biased in favor of such groups and oppose objectivity. The whole issue is about people being biased in favor of Jews, and other groups and biased and hateful against say white Christians and right wingers, based on this.
It isn't incidentally about just people who belong in those groups AND also want to use, and might even believe it themselves, into the oppressor/oppressed dichotomy to their benefit, at expense of others, in the intersectional progressive direction. Lets not lose track, the problem extends also to those who don't belong to such groups and are supremacists for them. Even though those who belong are more prone to be part of this movement of cultural marxism.
This is the the same as with the blacks, women and other groups that are treated as beyond criticism. Well, with the women it is different, there isn't as big of a taboo, but there is still that same movement. The cultural marxists aren't fighting for the most part against unfair people who dislike women, blacks, but are themselves haters of white people, haters of men, haters of non Jews. They are also haters of people who make fair criticisms of those groups, and make fair criticisms of the cultural marxists. They hate people who talk about crime and don't lie about 13/55, because they prioritize their ideology, over valid problems. And because they don't respect that other groups have a legitimate case to oppose bad behavior of the groups they favor at their expense.
They are willing to support and cover for crimes, while pathologilizing those opposing them.
Lets just say, that people who talk about genuine problems like say, grooming gangs, have the moral highground over people trying to cover up such issues because it is "disliking"/ism Pakistanis. Same, with the problem of authoritarianism and racist preference for such groups. Or a foreign country being prioritized, and those opposing it subject to cancel culture, vile attacks, and targeted by the Jewish lobby.
Bigotry in favor of Jews, Blacks, women, Muslims (when it comes to them being put above white Christians) etc, is a very key component of cultural Marxism.
It is one that is based on false, exaggerated accusation and insinuations of ism, and phobias, to cover its own agenda to benefit those groups at expense of the right wing outgroup, to shut down reality, and to cover up actual crimes and parasitical behavior.
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Can you point to the US anti-Israel or not pro-Israel party?
I'll conceded the Democrats are pro-Israel, I'm unconvinced they're more pro-Israel than Republicans.
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