site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 30, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

3
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I posted this on a progressive Christian subreddit yesterday, only to have it removed a few hours later. Frankly, I don't know what I expected to gain from speaking my mind there, because aside from a few people who asked genuine questions, everyone else was annoyed. Probably should have just posted it here.

--

Title: Emotionally drained by politics

For some context, I consider myself to hold left-leaning Christian and political viewpoints. I have gone through a journey of faith that has led me to re-evaluate conservative teachings and doctrine, which I no longer support or believe in. One of the most important values for me is mutual respect. I react negatively towards people who don't actively listen and hear out people who's values and beliefs are different than theirs. To be clear, active listening isn't tantamount to listening to agree, but rather listening to understand. It appears to me that this kind of listening is severely lacking not only in Christian circles, but in much of society today. I also hold above all other Scripture, the Great Commandment, and believe with my whole heart that loving your neighbor as yourself means loving every neighbor.

It of course bothers me greatly when I see Donald Trump calling Kamala Harris "mentally unwell since birth" or Donald Trump and JD Vance proclaim as fact that Haitian migrants in Springfield, OH, are eating dogs. But it also bothers me when I see pro-Palestinian activists circulating posters depicting a university president with devil horns and missiles (https://www.courant.com/2024/09/19/uconn-leaders-refuse-to-meet-with-pro-palestinian-protest-group-following-grotesque-antisemetic-imagery-depicting-university-president/), or those times when both Marjorie Taylor Green and Jasmine Crockett go back and forth taking personal jabs at each other, or even something like Tim Walz telling JD Vance to "get off the couch" and debate him. From my lived experience, acting in the manner that some of our politicians do is not fruitful and is not loving.

I recognize that the policies of the GOP are dangerous to minority groups in this country. I recognize that a Donald Trump presidency would threaten American democracy. But at the same time, I cannot help but feel like politics as a whole has become more about being right instead of making our country better. And part of making it better, I feel, is listening to not only people who hold the same values and beliefs, but also to people who don't. It appears to me that politicians are very quick to assume that all people who support the opposing party live in a vacuum, so they don't bother to hear them out. I have not seen a single Democrat or Republican candidate try to build bridges across the aisle in an effort to win over their vote. It seems like they're all cooped up in their respective echo chambers, only really caring about what it takes to get elected and nothing more.

I've actually decided not to vote at all this election. Respectfully, I am not looking to have my mind changed on this, as I've already heard and considered most of the usual arguments for why I should ("it's your civic duty" "Trump will win if you don't", "Vote the issues, not the person", etc). I live in a solidly blue state in New England. My congressperson has been in office for the past 15 years and has always won by a wide margin. Sure, there are my state and local offices, but I'm not convinced that anyone who's running would actually listen to the ideas that I have to make out state better. I think they're too busy catering to the interests of the party and wealthy donors.

I don't know, maybe what I'm seeking with this post is more understanding about my frustration than actual guidance. It's very hard for me to want to be invested in politics when it seems like all everyone wants to do is yell and scream at each other.

TL:DR This election season, due to all the personal attacks and inflammatory rhetoric and lack of mutual respect, has left me very politically disillusioned to the point where I don't want to vote anymore. Any understand or gentle guidance is appreciated.

Are you looking for non-progressive opinions? If so I will share my thoughts.

believe with my whole heart that loving your neighbor as yourself means loving every neighbor

Loving your neighbor means loving other Christians, and specifically precludes false Christians. ReligionForBreakfast explains this well in his recent “the most misunderstood parable of Jesus” analysis video. The historical evidence is overwhelming that Samaritans were considered co-religionists, and the textual evidence points to Samaritans being the “far case” of neighbor status. The Parable of the Samaritan defines who is a neighbor, and the further case of neighbor is a righteous co-religionist who isn’t totally aligned with your practices. God calls you to love your fellow Christians as yourself; and He calls you to love your brothers the most (those in your church, denomination, friends). While Christ does say to “love your enemies”, the Sermon on the Mount involves exaggeration to shock us into dispositional perfection: we do not actually cut off our hands when our hand leads to sin, or pluck out our eye when our eye leads to sin, and so the commands cannot be taken as literal practical rules.

It’s crucially important that we understand who are neighbors are. If you extend who you consider to be your neighbor beyond what God has established, you aren’t being “more good”, you are being bad. You are committing the worst sin, which is failing to love God with your mind and failing to obey his commandments. If you fail to obey Christ’s commandments then, according to John, you never knew him.

I'm not necessarily looking for guidance from a progressive perspective, nor was I really looking for a conversation about what "loving your neighbor" means. I'm quite convicted in my position on the latter and not really interested in having my mind changed on that.

Okay, but it seems integral to your progressive philosophy. You might feel better considering that Christ does not want you to love random strangers or, in this case, Haitians who practice voodoo.

Christian agape for a Haitian voodoo neighbor would involve getting them to stop practicing voodoo and turn to Christ.

Christian agape applies to Christians, the in-group. Christians have an obligation to lead strangers to Christ, but the emphasis of love in the gospel is decidedly not on strangers. In Christianity, the voodoo practitioner is not your neighbor even if he literally lives next door to you.

Among other things, this interpretation doesn’t really jibe with the Great Commission.

The Great Commission does not say to make disciples out of neighborly love, or any love for that matter. It says to make disciples. Upon becoming Christian they become neighbors, brothers, etc. The theology of this can be explored through other passages: “many are called but few are chosen”; “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world”; “he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons”; “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”; “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you”. It’s not simply that you create disciples through your own efforts and they become Christians from a blank slate because they have persuaded — there’s an element of Christ having already chosen those who would hear his message. There are logic and moral arguments against this which are known among atheists but that is, of course, outside the premises of the religion. Romans 9 takes this idea to an extreme level, calling those who can’t hear Christ “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, molded by God to show his wrath”. Not very neighborly to non-Christians, right? Barely humanizing. Another interesting tidbit is that the original Eucharist was called the Agape Feast, the same word used for love. Outsiders were completely excluded from participation in the central love ritual of the religion, and not just outsiders but students who were yet confirmed members. Those who participated but in Judas-esque fashion were also utterly dehumanized in the epistle of Jude, labeled “reefs at your love feast for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever”. Lastly, I would ask you whether Christ can love someone he never knew? Christ, plainly, never knew those who do not follow him, and at his return he tells them to go away. (Matthew 7:23).