This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Followup from a post I made in transnational thread about systemic child sexual abuse by a banned islamic cult in Malaysia. This post will actually focus on the concept of disproportionate Noticing, but the background leading to this actually could spawn a whole seperate thread about moral hypocrisy.
Summary: Malaysian police raided orphanages operated by a network of business entities linked to a banned islamic cult in early September. Sexual abuse (actual sexual abuse, not western diminished agency stuff) of 600+ minors aged 1-17 was the cause for the police launching the raids. Civil administrative incompetence, financial corruption and 'other inducements' are contributing factors to the failure of the religious authorities to police their own, to the great suffering of children. Yet not only is western media ignorant of this, what media does exist seems to focus on issues regarding migrant rights and statelessness.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/malaysia-child-abuse-scandal-gisb-children-orphans-foundlings-stateless-rights-4665351
https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2016/malaysia-babies-for-sale-101-east/index.html
CW angles: STOP NOTICING BIGOT Indonesians and filipino illegals sell their children to richer malaysians, whether they are childless chinese looking for a pureblood han (the only good outcome) or criminal gangs looking for kids to maim and pimp out (the most common outcome for brown kids). Sex tourism in southeast asia is not restricted to rich whites coming to spend tourism dollars, there is a flourishing regional demand for child prostitution. A little commented but readily observed reality here is that islamic regions have higher predilection for sex with minors.
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1177268/FULLTEXT01.pdf
Criminal statistics on pedophiliac incest are also Noticed, just as in Europe. To protect the rights of children names are rarely disclosed, but indicative hints (multigenerational households in rental apartments) or cases where the judges exercise discretion to name the convicted largely show the preponderance of muslims as sex offenders.
The aggressive downplaying of the severity of the child sexual abuse to pivot onto high concept issues such as citizenship and rights strikes me as a stark contrast to the discourse surrounding Canadian residential schools or Australian aboriginal rehoming. English language media framing of this issue seems to aggressively downplay the complicity of the Malay authorities and consumers who abetted and consumed the goods produced by the cult. To be extremely clear, the sexual abuses of children was facilitated by a cultified interpretation of Islam that the cult members practiced, which encouraged pedophilia, coercive polygamy and social control strategies. The Islamic morality enforcement authorities did not act on this - it is speculated that the police (who are ostensibly secular but nevertheless staffed by malay muslims) deliberately avoided informing JAKIM about the investigation/raid to prevent JAKIM from interfering or covering up the cults activities. Yet, english language media, especially what little western media covers this, is running its own narrative interference by downplaying the sexual abuses committed by brown muslims. Without a white or white adjacent enemy to aggressively pin all crimes hypothetical or otherwise on, the issue in question becomes philosophical migrant rights issues instead of visceral child sexual abuse.
There are many horrible takeaways about this case, but the most relevant here is the contrast between residential schools mass graves and this GISBH mass sexual abuse. If whites are there, their guilt is automatic and eternal. If browns do bad things, its their culture and whites must support them lest they lose their unique diversity.
I'm not up to date on this specific incident, thank you for sharing. I did fall down a rabbit hole earlier in the year reading about some of the insane and prolific cults/sects/sorcerers that seem to bubble up constantly in both Malaysia and Indonesia. Despite the Koran ostensibly forbidding sorcery (and in so doing also tacitly confirms that sorcery is real), there seems to be an incredible demand for magic and (uncharitably) witchcraft all over not just maritime SE Asia, but the entire Muslim world. The gov't of Qatar had a PSA campaign against magical amulets, the Saudi Religious police have a specialized anti-witchcraft department and actually capture and execute a sorceress every couple of years. Indonesia has a lot of problems with sorcerers scamming people out of most of their money, often impoverishing entire families.
It’s quite common at this level of development, see the occult fascination in the Anglosphere between around 1890 and 1914, new age cults and so on. We’ve just moved past it as we’ve advanced into pomo cynicism; they haven’t.
That time period was a fascinating overlap of old world superstition and the rapid advancement of science and engineering in the 1800s. I've always enjoyed the efforts to use the new, highly accurate tools of measurement to quantify supernatural phenomena. The most famous of these being to ascertain the weight of a soul. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment
More options
Context Copy link
How sincere was new age occultism in that era? Was it barnum style showmanship, or did people really believe and act their real life in accordance? The craziest cult practice I encountered personally was a thai woman who said she created real kumanthongs to sell to thai oligarchs. A kumanthong is a stillborn fetus removed from the womans uterus, then preserved by smoking and then wrapped in sanctified talismans. It had magic properties and was said to bring good luck. She was notorious for providing high end escorts in Southeast Asia who did not use condoms, and several guys I know who used her girls wondered if their kids were turned into good luck charms.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link