This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
tl;dr: FYI, Trump has evolved from the 2016 guy who said the Nazis at Charlottesville should be "condemned totally." He's now personally in favor of mass state killings if they're the most expedient way to do ethnic cleansing.
EDIT: Now that I can see the net karma on the "I hope you're right" comment, I've reconsidered whether winning this argument would be in my interests. I'm invoking Godwin's Law on myself to declare that I've lost and the thread is over. Nobody is, shall be, or ever has been, a Nazi.
There’s a Holocaust happening in China today. The Uyghurs, an ethnic group that includes, or included, 11 million people in China, are being rounded up arbitrarily and sent to “re-education camps,” where they are often killed or forcibly sterilized. More than a million, we think, are in camps now.
I used to believe that if anything on the scale of the Nazi Holocaust were to start up today, the rest of the world would rapidly respond and put an end to it. As a kid, I imagined enlisting. But China is too strong. Our leaders get away with not responding, because China simply denies everything. Sometimes with only the thinnest veneer of plausibility, like when they claimed to end the involuntary harvesting of prisoners’ organs, but the number of organ transplants kept rising steadily.
Joe Biden is not responding appropriately to this atrocity out of pragmatism, cowardice, or weakness. Maybe Kamala Harris will be different; we can at least hope.
But this started in 2017. Donald Trump did not respond appropriately either, because he approves of China’s actions.
Here’s Trump’s National Security Advisor at the time:
His administration felt differently, but there wasn’t much they could do. Mike Pompeo officially condemned the Uyghur genocide on his last day as Secretary of State, now that Trump couldn’t fire him. They also got him to sign a bill (co-sponsored by Harris) that sanctioned some Chinese officials for the ongoing atrocity.
Since then, people working for Trump have continued to condemn the genocide, and made pledges in his name to end it if he’s elected. But Trump himself has, as far as I can find, still declined to. In 2022, interviewers asked him whether he agreed with his staff, and he responded “I’d rather not say at the moment.” During his 2024 campaign, he’s said that Xi would be his first call as President, but he would not include human rights in his agenda for the call—in fact, one of his demands would be for them to increase the number of state executions for nonviolent offenses.
This is a consistent principle of his. Here’s President Trump excusing the massacres of Kurds on the Turkish border:
He’s going to try to do the same thing here in America.
Ever since being voted out of office, Trump’s language about immigration has shifted more and more towards the language of ethnic cleansing. He regularly tells crowds that immigrants are “poisoning the blood of our country.” There are about 15 or 16 million people here who shouldn’t be, he says, so “we got a lot of work to do.” More recently, he’s made it explicit that when he says “blood,” he means “genes.” It’s not a dog whistle, it’s not a gaffe, it’s not a malicious misreading of his ramblings.
This is identical to Nazi rhetoric. This is as harsh as Hitler was ever willing to be in his campaign speeches. He didn’t say he was going to round up the people poisoning his country’s blood and kill them. He said that he was going to deport them. Even once in power, when his government shifted policy toward extermination, they never admitted it.
A second Trump presidency will detain people suspected of being illegal immigrants, including those retroactively made “illegal,” and won’t be transparent about what happens next. How many of them survive detention will depend on logistics, on whether his new staff quietly rebels, and on how earnestly Trump tries to ensure that his preferred way of dealing with detainees is actually implemented. There are lots of ways this could end up not being a mass state murder. But “Trump disapproves of mass state murders” isn’t one of them.
(He wants pogroms, too. Just put people in charge who will look the other way, he says, and the problem will be solved immediately.)
I don’t think Trump started his political career as a Nazi. In 2017, he famously tried to have it both ways, saying of a rally led by white supremacists and containing avowed Nazis that it included some “very fine people,” but that the Nazis of course should be “condemned totally.” I think he just didn’t care one way or the other, and so was calibrating his remarks so that anyone could persuade themselves he agreed with them. Doing the politician thing, except most politicians don’t do that when it’s Nazis.
But in office, Trump got to know, and came to respect, Xi, and Erdogan, and Putin. His own attempts at mass deportation and building a wall were largely ineffective. But those guys. They knew how to get things done.
And now, after four years out of office, he’s rhetorically committed to the idea that there are millions of people here who shouldn’t be, because of their evil natures and evil genes. Now, all he’s willing to say against Nazis is that he’s never read Mein Kampf.
His Republican Party is, I believe and hope, not a Nazi party. As an institution, it’s not what the Nazi party was in the 1930s, just badly off-kilter. But Trump himself is a Nazi now. He doesn’t call himself that. But then, the Nazis didn’t use that word for themselves either.
For most of the past four years, I’ve tuned him out. I thought I knew everything I needed to know about him. Maybe you have too. But we were wrong—something has changed. People have been crying wolf for so long about Republicans being Nazis that now we just tune it out. Newspapers scared of looking like tabloids resort to headlines about “a fascination with genes and bloodlines.” So I missed it, and most people are still missing it.
Sources https://chinatribunal.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ChinaTribunal_JUDGMENT_1stMarch_2020.pdf https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-refused-to-say-whether-china-was-abusing-uyghurs-2022-4 https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/elections-2024-trump-xi-us-presidential-call-09232024232901.html https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1184897777941307392 (video) https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/trump-bad-genes-immigrants-hugh-hewitt-rcna174456 https://archive.is/nwOXF
Let's say the government takes "13/52" seriously and decides that Black culture is the reason for Black crime. To lower crime rates, it imposes the following restrictions on all Blacks:
Anyone who is caught doing something outlawed is arrested and transferred to a reeducation camp, which is like a regular prison, except you are forced to learn a trade and to act White, pregnancies of single mothers are terminated, children of single mothers are confiscated and placed in residential schools. Repeat offenders, both mothers and fathers, are sterilized. Anyone caught talking AAVE instead of General American or wearing saggy pants is punished. You can only leave the camp when you show that you've learned a useful trade, consume only media that promotes responsible lifestyles, speak General American and want to get married before having children. Then you get a job offer and released. If you relapse or associate with the wrong people, back to the camp you go.
In return, you get to live in a clean neighborhood that has no crime and features family-friendly Black culture, like mom-and-pop soul food restaurants, rap radio stations that play songs about having a steady job and a stable family, breakdancing competitions (it's an Olympic sport, after all!) and other stuff like that. And a national guard post on every corner.
This is what's happening to the Uyghurs. Is it a genocide?
Leaving aside the points brought up by @HonoreDB and @Folamh3, yes, forced abortions and sterilisations on a mass scale employed with ethnic selectivity are literal genocide ("the killing of genes/races").
More options
Context Copy link
Not a lawyer, but I think that would meet the legal definition of genocide, which is maybe why the U.S. uses that word for it. But all of that just sounds like the CCP version of what's happening, not what refugees and defectors are saying. And see links and Folamh3's reply on the forcible organ harvesting analyses.
More options
Context Copy link
You missed the part where Chinese doctors have privately admitted to harvesting the organs of Uyghurs in these camps; that numerous Chinese people have given testimony that they were told they would be able to receive a vital organ transplant on a specific day (only possible if the surgeons in question knew that a specific person with a viable organ would die on that day i.e. it's impossible that the organ came from an unforeseen traffic accident); that the rate at which China conducts organ transplants is far in excess of the number of people who have signed up to the voluntary donor list; and that even the number of people China executes every year is insufficient to explain the shortfall (even assuming that any transplanted organs came from people who had been executed - not a doctor and open to correction, but I imagine a lethal dose of sodium thiopental would probably irreparably destroy a heart or liver).
I don't think the usual injection regimen (anaesthetic/muscle relaxant/potassium chloride) destroys organs - certainly not to the degree that most natural toxins like amanitin, diphtheria toxin or ricin do. The cause of death from lethal injection is failure to get oxygen to the brain, not cytotoxicity, and the brain is far more sensitive to that than any other organ. Obviously, the organs of a clinically-dead body die if not removed relatively quickly, regardless of cause of death, but when you're doing a planned execution that's pretty trivial to avoid. They do also execute people by shooting them, and a shot to the head is about the ideal scenario for a transplant assuming you have the equipment on hand.
With death by firing squad, aren't riflemen typically instructed to aim for the heart rather than the head?
WP says it's not actually a firing squad; it's a single point-blank shot, apparently usually an assault-rifle hollowpoint to the head (which, credit where it's due, is about as reliably painless as executions get).
That's fair. Assuming this is the preferred method of execution in China, they're probably a source of some of the organs transplanted.
Apparently most of them these days are lethal injection rather than the bullet to the head, but as I said I think the organs from the former would still be usable anyway.
Googling this, one of the first results was an NPR article, which is mostly about the damage that lethal injections inflicts on the lungs (it certainly sounds like lungs wouldn't be viable for transplant after a lethal injection, and China carries out 250 such transplants a year), but also mentions the effect on the heart in passing:
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I imagine it's more like "pistol shot in the back of the head while walking them down the hallway".
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link