This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Here's something we haven't talked about yet: congestion pricing.
Recently, New York's congestion pricing scheme went live. Drivers who wish to enter lower Manhattan must pay a toll of $9. Almost immediately after the toll went live, traffic congestion got a lot better.
From an economics standpoint, the toll has been a big success. Consider, for a minute, the perspective of a person who is willing to wait an hour in traffic, but is not willing to wait 15 minutes plus pay $9. In a world of rational actors, this person should not exist. But in the real world, this person in fact does exist in great numbers. Not only that, but their irrational choice is also clogging up traffic for everyone else, as well as increasing pollution. From a standpoint of utility, there is no question that this program increases the overall utility of the city's transportation system.
There's also the money aspect. This toll raises money for a city that is chronically short of it – despite having some of the highest per-capita taxation in the world. In an ideal world, the additional funds would be used to build out more transportation infrastructure. In reality, the new taxes will end up in the bottomless pit of graft that grips the city.
A few takes I've seen:
This will increase traffic outside the zone as much as it decreases it in the zone. Personally, I doubt this. Near me, when the 520 bridge was tolled, it reduced traffic on the bridge without increasing it too much elsewhere.
This is unfair because it prices out the working class people who drive into Manhattan.
This is unfair because it forces people to take the subways and the subways are full of murderous lunatics.
The city has substituted new taxes for actually, you know, building stuff. The fact that city planning geeks are celebrating this shows how small our ambitions have become. The biggest infrastructure projects now are just... more taxes?
One take I haven't seen but is relevant:
Will people cheat? Here in Seattle, people drive without license plates, have fake temporary ones, register in different states, and put covers over their plates which make them invisible to cameras. You cannot be pulled over for this, so it's basically an honor system. I assume NYC will be similar.
What do people think about these new taxes? Good or bad?
Why shouldn't he exist? $9 per commute is $18 a day, is $396 a month assuming 22 working days in a month. Would you like to be out an extra $396 a month? I mean, I wouldn't, and I work as a software developer (albeit not in the US). And if you're still commuting to work 5 days a week you're probably not a software developer. And I'm not even counting other trips, though in a big city you can probably do your groceries on foot.
Yeah, but your time is worth $X an hour, where X>9! Not evenly, it isn't. My hours at work are worth ˜$25 after taxes but my hours outside of work are worth $0. Averaged over the day, an hour of my life is worth ˜$1, slightly more, which you will note is less than 9. If I had an extra 1.5 hour a day I wouldn't know how to use them to consistently make $18 after taxes to earn back the congestion charge. And you don't even get that, you get two blocks of 45 minutes.
Now, I wouldn't die if I were out $396 a month. It would just suck. But again, these people who are still physically coming into work 5 days a week probably aren't programmers.
Probably, lots of these people are just taking the subway now, which the Internet tells me costs $132 for a month, which is at least less than $396 albeit some crazy person might set you on fire. Notably, people would rather spend two hours a day in New York traffic than ride the subway if given the choice, which has to mean something. Others will have switched jobs, but again, that would be a job so much worse than their previous one that they'd rather spend two hours in New York traffic each day, when given the choice.
This a feature and not a bug.
The time of working class people is less valuable than those who make more than them per unit of time. If a working class person (or person of any class, really) deems $18 dollar a day to be too much, they can come in earlier and/or leave later, take alternative means of transportation (e.g., subway, bus, train), or arrange carpooling with others in a similar situation.
Plus, the working class is likely almost all lifetime net-tax consumers (especially in an area like NYC). Since they're free-riding on—or at least riding the coat-tails of—net-tax payers, if anyone gets last dibs at (quasi-)public goods, it should be them (other than the underclass).
No, the time of working class people is less valuable in dollars than the time of rich people, but dollars themselves are worth less to rich people than to working class people. A dollar comparison is not a utility comparison and a libertarian analysis should not pretend that it is.
No, your reply is by no means convincing, unless perhaps one has a noble savage view of working class persons.
A dollar being worth more to a working class person than to someone higher-earning is a feature, not a bug, as per my previous comment. Congestion pricing ultimately trades off time with money. People who value $X more than their unit of time can voluntarily select themselves out of traffic jams.
A "dollar comparison" has the advantage over a "utility comparison" in that a dollar comparison incorporates the opinion of third parties, namely their employers. The dollar comparison reflects the notion that the employers of the working class value the employee's time less than the employers of their employees who earn more per unit of time, skin in the game and all.
Plus, even if we moved toward a utility-based comparison, it's not axiomatic that everyone's utility should be equally valued by third parties. The utility comparison has very obvious failure states. Namely, utility monsters. Perhaps I value every marginal dollar I receive or don't infinitely relative to everyone else, should society cater to my interests? Perhaps I value my time infinitely relative to everyone else, should society cater to my interests?
People can value $x more than their unit of time because
The argument for congestion pricing depends on #1, not on #2, and in fact there's a motte and bailey here where the motte is "they value their time less" and the bailey is "they value their time using a smaller dollar amount" (which is not the same as valuing it less).
The employers are paying in dollars too, so claiming they "value the employee's time less than" their own bosses has the same problem--they value it less when measured in dollars, not when measured in utility (and especially not in utility to the employees).
But the argument that poor people "value their time less" implicitly assumes that you're comparing utility already, so you're stuck with it. There's no reason to care that they value their time less in dollars if dollars aren't proportional to utility.
While not forgetting utility monsters...
So now the claim, or at least a pathway for the introduction of obfuscation, is that the employers of high-earners pay more to their employees than the employers of low-earners because the employers of high-earners have lesser utility of dollars? McDonalds Corporation likely has little utility with respect to a given dollar, yet their burger-flippers aren't exactly getting splashed in cash.
Suppose members of Group A owned paintings that they have historically been observed to sell at on average $150 each, because they're willing to part with the paintings at such a price and buyers are willing to pay such a price. However, members of Group B are willing to sell their paintings at an average of $50, as observed by historical transactions, and buyers aren't willing to pay a price too much higher, on average, for the paintings Group B owns. I hardly doubt you'd quibble if someone remarked, "The paintings owned by Group B are less valuable than those owned by Group A."
The time of my surgeon neighbor is more valuable than the time of my nearby McDonald's manager (to circle-back to the previous reference), whose time in turn is more valuable than those who panhandle on our nearest main road. The working class versus higher-earning classes situation is just a generalization of that.
No thanks, I'm not stuck with anything. However, if we play along with the utility framework, and suppose that decreased wealth/income means increased utility with a given dollar we could consider:
Why might a low-earning person value a dollar more?
Because typically, they own fewer dollars.
Why might such a person own fewer dollars?
Because it's the accumulation of others not valuing his or her time as much as those of higher-earners, and such a low-earning person is willing to sell their time for fewer dollars than those of higher-earners. That is, we could say, this low-earning person's time is less valuable than that of higher-earners.
All roads lead back to lower earners' time being less valuable.
And if I were a net-tax payer in NYC (or anywhere), I'd much rather that any frictions in employment and/or hours-worked be incurred by low-earners than high-earners, as high-earners better help shoulder city, state, and federal taxes. Although granted, from an accelerationist standpoint, one might want to starve the beast, and deprive NYC/New York State/USA of tax dollars.
It is true that dollars are worth a lot to employees, and are worth little to McDonalds. But employees and McDonalds are also on opposite sides of the transaction.
Employees accept jobs which pay very little because they value dollars a lot. "Dollars are worth a lot" compensates for "it's few dollars". McDonalds has jobs which pay very little because McDonalds is on the other side of the transaction, so "it's few dollars" is not something they need to compensate for--it's something that's already good to them. The fact that dollars are not worth much to McDonalds just makes it better.
Comparing paintings usually takes place in a context where comparing dollar values is useful. If you tried to make an economic argument where the distinction between "costs more in dollars" and "is more valuable" actually mattered, then you could no longer just compare the dollar value of the paintings.
No, you couldn't say that. The low-earning person's time is less valuable than that of high earners, in dollars. Treating it as less valuable in utility is circular reasoning, since you're using it to justify treating dollars as like utility.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link