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Notes -
Let's talk about infant male circumcision. Common in the United States, considered beastly in most European countries. But they don't spend much time criticizing the United States about it, perhaps due to fear of being called anti-semitic.
Reasons not to do it:
The foreskin has functions
Bad for the infant's brain due to inadequate aenesthesia
Complications ranging from meatal stenosis to more grisly and life-changing outcomes
Etc etc
Anyway, besides just introducing a topic I believe is underdiscussed both on the Motte and in general, my questions are this:
How do you rate the importance of this issue relative to commonly discussed culture war stuff? If it is true that circumcision is a serious violation akin to rape, then it seems very very important.
and
Does anyone on this board support routine infant circumcision, or is this thread just going to be full of a lot of devil's advocate stuff?
I think of all the decisions a parent has over their child's life, circumcision is a relatively small one. Parents have the power to completely fuck over their children without it remotely qualifying as anything illegal or even justifiable to have the child taken away. The only way for the world to function is for society to assume parents have their biological children's best interests at heart, which they do 99% of the time. If parents think, "I predict my child would want to be circumcised as an adult", I think they should be allowed to go through with it, because the evidence is strong that adult circumcision greatly reduces sexually pleasure, where as the evidence that circumcision as a baby reduces sexual pleasure is weak.
There are other benefits to foreskin removal as well, like hygiene and having effects on preventing STD spread. Enough that I don't think not being circumcised is overwhelmingly better, even if on net it's probably better.
In conclusion, I think hospitals should tell parents "Are you sure you want circumcision? Here are a lot of the negative effects", and if the parents say yes anyways, it happens.
I always hear hygiene and STDs trotted out in these arguments, but I'm somewhat skeptical that it actually matters. Are these really significant in the day and age of regular bathing, and ubiquitous condoms? Like, sure, in Africa, I'm sure it makes a big difference, where HIV ravages something like 1/3 of the population. But in the USA? If there is a small to medium chance that circumcision actually does reduce male sensation, then hygiene and STDs are not enough to make me think circumcision is worth it, at least in the USA and other modernized countries.
It's also worth noting that proponents of female circumcision claim that there are significant health benefits that outweigh the downsides of that, too. But no one outside the countries where it's practiced thinks that that should matter at all to the question of the ethics of FGM.
I'm not going to discuss any specific studies because I don't want to google them. However, I'll echo my memory of the STD transmission rate in Africa being affected by circumcision.
I understand and sympathize with the anti-circumcision argument. I've just found that there's a big disconnect between the people I know in real life vs. internet advocates and the fringe-case traumatized victims. My buddies who are uncut, overall, wish they had been. None of my friends who are regret it or feel less whole. From a practical perspective cleaning your penis is a hell of a lot easier without folds. Sex becomes more complicated with potential rips etc. Oral isn't as straightforward for someone to perform. Once again this is anecdotal but a collection of minor inconveniences.
And then there's the final nail in the coffin for me which is female preference. Life isn't fair. What women want is what men give. There are entire illogical swaths of our society built around it. The accumulation of currency and power is, in my view, largely driven by concerns around sexual access. A significant percentage of American women prefer uncut cock and wishing / hoping they'll change their minds about it if we just stop circumcision is a pipe dream.
Nobody I know remembers being circumcised, but uncut buddies have an uphill battle getting laid. The risk of a botched procedure etc. seems low to me compared to the certainty of reduced sexual opportunities.
How many of your friends have a basis for comparison? There may be a certain "ignorance is bliss" thing for most men. My attention first got turned to the subject when I heard from gay circumcised friends who had slept with uncircumcised guys, and said that there is a major difference in sexual function and perceived pleasure.
I'm sure women would adapt. I also think that most women probably don't even think about penises enough to have a preference once way or the other.
... No appreciable number of people have this experience. Of course there's an "ignorance is bliss" component, I have no idea what it's like to have foreskin beyond when I was younger and had different skin/head ratios. I can tell you I didn't like the feeling but that doesn't mean anything.
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