site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   36180 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

20
Top Bottom New Old Controversial
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I am sufficiently fixed in my views that engagement with you would likely only produce heat. Nonetheless, I dislike you calling me sad for sticking with my man.

He was the only President in my working life whose administration produced an economy sufficient for me to earn money for a retirement account, which is now down to 60% of what it was when he left office. Tangible personal results like that are memorable and anecdotal by their very nature, and thus unfalsifiable, so no data-based argument would sway me.

Are you within 10 years of retirement, and if not, why do you care about the drop?

He was the only President in my working life whose administration produced an economy sufficient for me to earn money for a retirement account,

If so, your working life must be very brief to date, or you are not very representative of the norm. See chart here, indicating that median real retirement savings in 2019 ($65,000) was just $1200 more than it was in 2016 (63,814).

which is now down to 60% of what it was when he left office.

The SP500 closed on Jan 20, 2021 at 3851. It closed yesterday at 3807. That is obviously not anywhere close to a 40% decline; it is a one percent decline. If your portfolio is down 40% then you might want to rethink your investment strategy. If you are young and you are comfortable with volatility, a portfolio like yours might be a good idea. But it sounds like you are not comfortable with volatility.

I had a comment with numbers and info in it, but I cannot paste on iPhone (fix plz @ZorbaTHut ASAP), and so it is lost. Suffice it to say that, had I simply kept my IRA out of the market when I was laid off in Dec 2020 (EDIT: 2021) and just let it bear interest, I would have 150% of my life’s savings in that account.

I honestly have no idea how to fix that, I don't even own an iPhone. Any developers out there with mobile Apple tools who can work on this one?

I don't understand -- your savings would have grown 50% in less than 2 years? That would require an annual interest rate of over 20%.

Sorry, 150% of my current IRA, which has lost a third of its value after I reinvested my 401(k) in January 2022 upon losing the job it was dependent on in December 2021. (I also missed a year in my previous reply.)

I am reminded by your comment of the Trump supporter who validated his support because his buisness had been doing so well. His buisness iirc was repossession or some similar business.

I do not believe that you like Trump on the account of economic indicators during his tenure, nor do you try to make it plausible.

It’s true I did believe he would increase my fortunes when I voted for him, because I believed he was a selfish man who would increase the ability of businessmen like himself to profit. His tax cuts validated my choice. Why I liked him was his enthusiasm for America, his wholehearted dismissal of the woke nonsense as foolishness and tripe, and his awareness of the games being played by those in power.

You don't consider the economy a plausible reason to motivate someone's political leanings? That defies belief.

Tangible personal results like that are memorable

I agree with that, but I don't think either president had that much impact on the economy. Funnily enough taking off the gloves to win the last election might have been a huge mistake for the Democrats because of that.

The President doesn't have that much impact on the economy in general. Not directly, anyway. Appointing the Fed Chair is a big deal, but that almost invariably ends up being someone responsible and non-controversial because no one wants a weirdo who is going to drive the economy off the cliff.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats