site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

20
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

It looks like a developer finally got around to hiding scores for 24 hours on this site (Thanks, FatherInire). I'm curious if people thought that the scores being shown immediately changed how they interacted with or saw the forum. For me it made things feel a lot more confrontational and higher-stakes, I'm glad we're hiding scores again. Immediately visible scores encourages dog-piling and "ratio-ing" in my opinion which goes against the goal of this forum.

Re: up/down votes, I've seen downvotes for some comments I made and I've managed to sit on my vindictiveness to immediately go downvote the downvoters, but that's only because Scott beat niceness into me over on SSC and ACX.

I am certainly petty, spiteful, and vindictive enough to abuse up/downvoting for partisan purposes - "this guy is One Of Us, I must support him"/"oh you downvoted me, you son of a gun, see how you like it when I spam you with downvotes!"

That's why I don't like up/down voting systems or likes or anything of that nature, because whatever the good intentions, they invariably turn into popularity contests. For every "take this upvote for a good, informative, well-argued comment" vote, there will be fifty "I'm voting for you because the other guy disagreed with you and the other guy is my outgroup" votes.

Slashdot's voting system generally solves this problem, which is understandable given it was designed in the late 90s; you have a limited number of adjectives with which to flavor feedback (which can be used either positively or negatively), post voting is capped at 5 points, and users chosen at random only have 5 votes to bestow.

Importantly, there's no button that directly maps to "you're wrong/I don't like your argument/fuck you(r account's posting history)"- the only way to do that is to make a counterargument- and if you really feel the need to downvote something, and you have the random power to do so, you're burning an uncommon resource to do it.

It doesn't fully eliminate low-effort sniping (but even removing votes entirely doesn't do that; Tumblr and Twitter arguably have it as a design goal... as does 4chan, in its own way), but that's the cost of being able to distill community sentiment into a simple number-adjective pair (to help outside observers pick up the high points of the conversation and to be able to digest it quickly through auto-hiding the less well-rated posts).