This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I haven’t seen a Kyrie Irving thread so I will start one.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/34942326/nets-suspend-kyrie-irving-least-five-games-pay
Now I already canceled the NBA over the forced blm message but suspending Kyrie just makes me even less interested in watching a game. Personally I’ve played basketball 3-5 times a week for 30 years. I’ve also canceled Nike and refuse to where their shoes.
I don’t understand fight antisemitism movement. Jews seem to be doing fine in this country. It’s almost like everyone in blue tribe needs to make themselves a victim because otherwise they have no statue
Kyrie a weird guy but it’s not like on the court he’s promoting this stuff. People should be allowed to work and allowed to have their own private opinions. The stuff he promoted is bad but just let a guy do his job.
To me this Kyrie thing is scary because this regime Can target anyone - your no longer allowed to have weird opinions. Isaac Newton had some weird opinion. In the modern world he’s not discovering gravity. The weird people are necessary.
I strongly advise everyone here boycotts woke brands. It’s important that we end this culture and the only way we get back to normal is fighting fire with fire.
Also I guess Musks is having some advertising issues at Twitter because he doesn’t bow down. I strongly advise trying to support businesses that you see ads for on twitter.
I wouldn’t be shocked if blacks are the next group to join the GOP. Lots of weird opinions in that community and basically anyone middle class has some wrong think so it’s clear that culturally their not a fit with Dems.
Nike, NBA, and Disney are dead brands to me. Actually really like Star Wars and here there’s a good new series out but I can’t watch it.
Sometimes the complaints here about cancel culture are legitimate and real (if frequently also repetitive and tedious) and sometimes it's more like "Some idiot said some stupid shit and got backlash, but I agree with the stupid shit or I hate the people who are offended by it, therefore this is bad."
Your complaint is in the latter category.
Irving doesn't have "weird" opinions, he has inflammatory, bigoted opinions. It is not a new thing that most brands (including sports teams) don't want to be associated with people spouting outright racism, anti-Semitism, and other forms of bigotry. If you were complaining about uneven enforcement (e.g. that some other player said "Kill all white people" and didn't get suspended) you could dredge up a point here, but no, you just don't think anti-Semitism is bad and you think the people who do think anti-Semitism is bad are bad, therefore it's bad for people to be punished for it.
"The weird people are necessary" - really? Is Kyrie Irving a generational talent such that basketball will suffer without him? (Genuinely don't know, I don't follow basketball.) What exactly is it about his "weird" opinions that enriches our culture or the sport? If you told me there was a brilliant physicist who's on the verge of discovering cold fusion but he just got cancelled for telling a racist joke at work, I'd agree that's stupid, but a basketball player got suspended (he wasn't even "cancelled") for being an anti-Semitic loon and you think this is damaging to the culture? Nah, man. Most employers will suspend you, at the very least, if you spout off like that in a way that damages their brand.
This reminds me of the irony I see among certain NFL fans. If the league puts "End Hate" or "End Racism" on the sideline then these people complain about how the NFL should stay out of politics. But during the Kaepernick debacle nearly all of them felt that the league was obligated to make an affirmative stance in favor of patriotism and require players to stand. There was no way out of this controversy. Before a game Steelers coach Mike Timlin asked players if any of them planned to kneel. When a few of them came forward, he opted to keep the team in the tunnel during the national anthem to avoid controversy. This only served to piss of conservatives even more, as Tomlin was evidently obligated to make sure that everyone on the team was out there standing. I get the impression that if the NFL had suspended Kaepernick pending an apology and made a statement that a similar fate would befall any other player who refused to toe the line, this would have been greeted with enthusiasm among them.
This isn't to say that those on the left can't be equally hypocritical. After the Bruins 2011 cup run Tim Thomas didn't attend the team's visit to the White House because he didn't like Obama. One sportswriter blasted Thomas for his decision, saying that Obama invited the team, not Thomas, so it wasn't his place to refuse an invitation. When the Penguins won the cup in 2017, the same sportswriter blasted Sidney Crosby for accepting Trump's invitation and claimed that Crosby had a moral duty to refuse to attend. "Keep Politics out of Sports", like most things, is really only dependent on whether one happens to agree with the politics in question.
Status quo preference is all that is needed to defend continuing to stand during the anthem, but oppose adfing repeation of BLM slogans.
A further difference is wide of consensus exists for each of the ideas, expressed. "White supremacy is real." is a niche idea compared to "I respect my country.", thus those promoting the former and shunning the latter, are politicizing the game.
To say nothing of inconsistency of these catchphrases being employed by NFL. Mere overrepresentation of African Americans among victims of police brutality is said to be the result racism, but them being 17% of NFL QBs, 67% of all NFL players, despite constituting only 13% of the population, is by NFL seen to be unworthy of investigation.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link