This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Who has been following the drama around Disco Elysium? Disco Elysium, of course, is the 2019 CRPG that has received numerous accolades for being the savior of Western computer role-playing gaming, the best game in a long time etc. I've played it through, and it deserves the accolades; many here have played it as well, and it is not surprising that a forum like this would have many aficionados for a game that basically consists of reading vast oodles of texts about one drunken failure cop's personal psychodramas and politics and a well-realized fictional somethingpunk setting, and so on.
The game was been made by ZA/UM, an Estonian developer / art collective, around a world created by Estonian novelist Robert Kurvitz, and is quite obviously Estonian-influenced if one knows anything about Estonia (starting with the fact that Revachol, the city where the game happens, is very visually remiscient of Tallinn, the capital of Estonia, once known as Reval).
What's the drama? According to Wikipedia:
How Kurvitz and Rostov explain it:
I've also seen suggestions that Kurvitz et al believe that Tütreke, Kender etc. are planning to compromise their vision specifically for upcoming Amazon Disco Elysium series, presumably so that the political (anti-capitalist - Kurvitz is a self-described communist, very much a rarity in Estonia) aspect of their work would be compromised.
What ZA/UM says:
More context from an Estonian Redditor
Perhaps it's not necessary to specifically mention all the ironic aspects involved in this, and if we indeed see Disco Elysium as an art project, it feels like a fitting capstone to the project, in a way.
It's ironic and sad, I thought the DE creators would get purged by the woke but they apparently fell out between each other over money.
Kender supposedly played an important role in the project, as did the the 3 other guys.
If it is as they say, I hope they get somewhere. Also, it doesn't really strike me as possible Kurvitz & co are actual communists; the game is way too nuanaced to be a product of true believer cogitation.
They strike me more as pranksters who used the retarded western fascination with superficial communism to get promoted. Also, intelligent Balts being unironically communist.. what?
Does being a true believer mean you have to be a mindless follower of the existing dogma? I think the game makes it quite clear that ZA/UM consider communism a valid reaction to the injustices of existing socioeconomic systems. They don't blame people for wanting social justice and economic equality, but they don't know how to do this without spilling rivers of blood or ending up ruled by corrupt bureaucrats or oppressive dictators or remaining a useless discussion club. A heart vs mind conflict.
At this point, you cannot possibly be in favor of communism, that is, state ownership of means of production unless you're an idiot, which the writeres aren't, so..
Why planned economy cannot possibly work efficiently or without being tyrannical has been explained sufficiently by Hayek around the end of WW2, and subsequent developments have only supported his ideas.
EDIT:
although reading the wiki, if it's accurately describing details from the history mentioned in the game, they might actually be commies. In-game communism is portrayed as less dire than actual real-world communism, in broad strokes.
I guess it makes sense if we consider intelligence to be often used to rationalise away innate drives. The communist revolutionaries were typically not very successful children of middle classes, who, having not succeeded in the existing order riled up the lower classes in order to usurp power, and inevitably created regimes way more nightmarish than the ones they had rebelled against.
I hope this caused you to update away from believing "people who disagree with me are all idiots, because they're obviously wrong" is a good heuristic.
I generally did not believe that, though..
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link