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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   38881 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 24, 2025

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I found several parts of the article weirdly at odds with common sense interpretation.

This sentence, of Karl Popper:

Popper, in his sweepingly influential 1945 book The Open Society and Its Enemies, denounced the idea of national community entirely, labeling it as disastrous “anti-humanitarian propaganda” and smearing anyone who dared cherish as special his own homeland and history as a dangerous “racialist.”

...is frankly bizarre. Popper did not denounce national community entirely, and didn't imagine any sort of patriotism as "racialist." He did argue against tribalism and extreme nationalism, but that's hardly the same thing. He opposed totalitarianism, yes, and national ideologies when they justified xenophobia or authoritarianism. He did question when national pride became linked to racial superiority or exclusion, but the book referred to was published in 1945!

Yes, I have no idea why the author is trying to bring Popper into this. It does not help the argument being made. Popper would disagree with his theory of history having a "long 20th century". Popper would also reject a zealous anti-fascism crusade. His "paradox of tolerance" would in fact have you tolerate Fascists until they throw the first punch, and not tolerate our current brand of anti-Fascists because of their demand that we're not allowed to hear the argument of Fascists ("they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols"). This isn't some weird reversal of meaning, as much of The Open Society is dedicated to going after Marxists, not Fascists. Marxists that were at the time quite happy to use the language of opposing Fascism to install their regimes across Eastern Europe.

There's no need for these complicated models of who's meant to be "open" or "closed". That just gets you stuck in a doom loop of why "open" institutions seem to love "closed" stuff as long as the closed stuff looks left-wing. The situation is more easily modelled as left-wing institutions being biased in favour of left-wing policies regardless of what those policies are.

Edit: Also how do you mention zealous self-professed anti-Fascism without mentioning that Russia's claimed reason for invading Ukraine is a hysterical accusation of Fascism directed at the Ukrainian government? Then again, this is a weird contradiction that nobody ever wants to notice. Neither those who support the current thing, who have the uncomfortable job of trying to distance themselves from the wrong kind of anti-fascist, or those opposed to the current thing, because it makes Russia look like it suffers from the exact same derangement as the west.

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.”

This is clearly an advocacy for European-style hate speech laws. No doubt my speech should be considered "incitement to intolerance" and criminal according to Karl Popper. I'll add here that Popper is Jewish, so there's an ethnic, self-serving undercurrent to his demand for criminalizing incitement to intolerance. Of course a foreigner going to a foreign land is going to demand the people who live in that country are tolerant of people like him. He doesn't have their best interests at heart.

I would agree it's ambiguous if Popper would support antifa, although Popper himself engaged in street violence as a Marxist in Vienna in 1919. Preaches Marxism in Austria, then immigrates to Britain and preaches the Open Society. Many such cases.

This is clearly an advocacy for European-style hate speech laws.

This must be the famous "horseshoe theory" I've been hearing so much about. You're literally taking the anti-racist hate-speech-law-enjoyer bastardization of what Popper said, and going "yup! that's what he meant", when he was saying the polar opposite. The words you quote yourself contradict your interpretation:

for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

He's talking about people who would shut off rational debate, not people arguing for a national community. If he's arguing for suppressing anyone, it's advocates of hate speech laws.

Yes, and leftists accuse people like me (and others on the DR) of doing that all the time. It's easy to just accuse your opponent of "not being prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument." You are just avoiding this part of the quote, which is the most unambiguous part:

We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

"Incitement to tolerance" is exactly European-style hate speech laws.

Yes, and leftists accuse people like me (and others on the DR) of doing that all the time.

And what is Popper supposed to do about that?

Don't get me wrong, I think liberals were writing checks they couldn't cash (they were assuming they will always win a rational argument, and therefore won't need suppression as long as they can debate), but that's another thing than outright advocating for banning specific positions, which is what you're accusing them of.

You are just avoiding this part of the quote, which is the most unambiguous part:

I disagree that it's unambiguous, "intolerance" can mean a lot of things. "Not being prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument" is a lot more descriptive, and therefore more strict, which makes it a lot harder to accuse your opponent of.

And what is Popper supposed to do about that?

What Popper is doing is pathologizing criticism of the outgroup, except for his own outgroup. This has been the bedrock of post-WWII moral consensus. It's the foundation of Critical Theory and the study of The Authoritarian Personality.

The syllogism is foundational to Critical Theory: racism and antisemitism is a psychopathology with no rational basis (note this is not proven, it's just taken as an unassailable assumption). So any engagement in that behavior is ipso facto irrational. So if you criminalize "irrational intolerance" you are criminalizing racism and anti-semitism. Although Popper suggests the risk of violence from "intolerance" he is unequivocally advocating for criminalizing "incitement of intolerance." He says this directly, he's not saying to only criminalize intolerance if it's physically violent.

It directly follows from Popper and Critical Theory that Gentiles criticizing Jewish culture and morality is a psychopathology and intolerant, whereas Jews criticizing Gentile culture and morality is rational and preaching tolerance.

"We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law." Those are his words.

Popper is pretty much as opposite a Critical Theorist as it's possible to be. He's a frequent source for arguments against Critical Theory, even.

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What Popper is doing is pathologizing criticism of the outgroup, except for his own outgroup.

You haven't pointed to where he is doing it. You've pointed to him doing the opposite.

This has been the bedrock of post-WWII moral consensus. It's the foundation of Critical Theory and the study of The Authoritarian Personality.

Is Popper a Critical Theorist, or a member of the Frankfurt School? It's the first I'd hear about that.

Although Popper suggests the risk of violence from "intolerance" he is unequivocally advocating for criminalizing "incitement of intolerance." He says this directly, he's not saying to only criminalize intolerance if it's physically violent.

I don't see where you're getting it from. The direct interpretation of his words is that "intolerance" is defined as denouncing all argument, and forbidding followers to listen to rational argument.

"We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law." Those are his words.

I know. You've quoted the entire paragraph. There are other words there too, ones that contradict your interpretation.

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