This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I dunno, I actually have a very high regard for Koreans and their mindset. This is just an anecdote but I did visit South Korea a while back and left with a very positive opinion of the people there - in fact they're the loveliest people I've ever met in any country, the hospitality they showed us travellers was just overwhelming. So many of the locals there actually went out of their way to help us and make our experience better, I wasn't expecting it at all. They weren't too hung up on social propriety like the Japanese sometimes are and they didn't help in a way where they were just politely showing service to foreigners, they did so as if they actually wanted to make sure we were safe and comfortable. It may well be my fondest travel experience, and part of the reason why is that it just felt so genuinely welcoming.
Regarding the Japanese and their "belief in Japan", I'm not exactly sure this is a positive - I get the sense they do so by ignoring all the warts and all in their own country out of a sense of nationalism, somewhat similar to how Chinese nationalists do so. This is exemplified in their treatment of WW2, where much of the country prefers to ignore it in stark contrast to other Axis powers like Germany. Koreans seem to be more self-critical and this is reflected in their media, but I think in some ways this is a good thing.
I assure you that out of two extremes, the Japanese have chose the healthier way of dealing with it.
The German way wasn't supposed to be healthy for the Germans, though.
Worked as intended, then.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
After seeing the kind of moral browbeating you get when you cannot let 150 year old sins go, I'm willing to say that Japan ignoring its multitude of war crimes is the next best thing after having not done them at all. I don't think they're likely to do it again, so I don't know what the purpose of such guilt would be.
Certainly, Western nations are unique in acknowledging their own crimes, but it seems that these acknowledgements have been put to effective use by anti establishment types who hate the country and want it to die, or at least want the ruling class to go away so that they can be in power.
I guess truth is a fleeting thing for me, sadly. If one side acknowledges it, and the other side acknowledges the other side's ugly truths and then totally ignores its own, then truth must be disregarded. "The first casualty of war is Truth" and all. Koreans are in an even riskier position because of their proximity to such a hostile regime.
"Weird fact, things actually stop being true once many dumb people believe them"
More options
Context Copy link
I'm always stunned when I read that people say Japan ignores its war crimes. Like in what sense? Who are we imagining when we write this? There have been multiple official apologies, there's even a Wikipedia page dedicated to this. It's true there isn't the state mandated self-flagellation and officially mandated distancing (from Nazism) of the type you see in Germany, and it's also true that some deniers and apologists get airtime. But they're not the majority. And anyway what would be preferable? National self-hatred?
I mean, it’s definitely more normalised to the extent that APA hotels is owned by Nanjing Massacre deniers and IIRC put books regarding that in hotel rooms, and that Nippon Kaigi, well, exists. I don’t think either would be permissible in Germany (let alone be able to have members in such high positions as in Nippon Kaigi).
My impression is that many people in Japan don’t know many details about Japanese atrocities, to some extent due to the way history is taught (broadly as a list of facts covering a large span of history, rather than historical analysis).l, and — due both to concerted effort by early postwar governance and due to lack of exposure — people don’t really care.
In that sense it is a "nation that ignores its war crimes". I'm not sure it would be better otherwise, but it is somewhat ugly.
edit: a word
More options
Context Copy link
I definitely wouldn't say they deserve to be constantly browbeaten and driven into self-hatred, and it's true they have issued official apologies over the years. I'm not the largest fan of inherited guilt myself, and wouldn't want to subject the Japanese to that. But it would kind of help their perceptions of sincerity if they didn't enshrine the Martyrs of Showa in Yasukuni Shrine, and if multiple heads of state and government officials didn't ceremonially visit it (granted, visitation is spotty, certain Japanese PMs have made efforts to distance themselves from it).
Consider if Germany had maintained an official shrine in which Nazi war-criminals were worshipped, and if large groups of members of the Bundestag had visited that shrine over the years. Would people have believed the original official apology to have been sincere under those circumstances? I'm aware the PM has no say in who the shrine venerates due to the separation of church and state in Japan, but when they're torn between their sense of nationalism vs. wanting to distance themselves from their actions in WW2, they're likely to select the former.
More options
Context Copy link
Huh, I hadn't really thought about it, to be honest. I just accepted it as a fact through osmosis that Japan generally hadn't apologized for anything and that schools generally don't go over their past wickedness in detail.
I appreciate your Japan facts. I'm still learning Japanese, though my motivation has been wavering lately. I could probably hitch onto some family friends' plans to visit later this year, if I wanted to, but I don't know.
Japanese war crimes were certainly brutal. And I remember having a moment of "Is this cool?" about 20 years ago reading about a local man (since dead) who was remembering his time in Unit 731--like, not from jail, from his kotatsu table in his living room, talking to a reporter. That did seem odd. But I've seen odder here. The guy did express remorse and confusion, and clearly lived with at least the Japanese version of guilt for his past. I suppose that for me, at the time at least, having grown up in the states, I didn't feel this was sufficient punishment.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Is there another Axis power you are comparing them to? I'll accept the overall premise of "Japan hasn't satisfactorily repented of its war crimes," but Germany is pretty much the only comparison here. Maybe Italy has some reflection, but I think the "and then we overthrew the terrible, no-good Mussolini" take is at least as common as the "we did bad things and supported even worse ones" take.
I haven't visited the more minor powers like Finland, Hungary, and Thailand, but I suspect the take there is closer to "it's complicated".
I don't think Italy committed all that many war crimes? They were certainly allied to Germany and Romania but Italy didn't really participate in most of the worst stuff.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link