site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   30434 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 21, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top New Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

People, and especially women, are good at self-deception.

To that end, we can see that they most likely really do believe that they believe all of the things amadan says they do as reasons for their actions.

To feel something besides alone?

At the same time, we can also acknowledge that there's probably something to your guess here.

“Women want to be raped rather than be alone” is a spicy enough take to demand some fucking strong evidence. I’ll settle for literally any, though.

Women love rape. There’s nothing that gets a woman’s motor going like forcibly holding them down and having your way with them. Degrade her verbally, pull her hair, smack her ass, choke her.

If you’d spent much time with women you’d know this.

Boring troll is boring. Banned for a week, probably permaban next time.

ETA: Threw flaming shitfit in DMs. Permabanned.

https://twitter.com/extradeadjcb/status/1443219177733607432

https://extradeadjcb.substack.com/p/10-you-can-save-her

Not exactly what you said, but closer than the other guy

“My angel wife is gonna drag me to heaven, I just do whatever she tells me”. It’s miserable to listen to, you can tell it absolutely desiccates their poor wives

This gender dynamic stuff is really difficult (and cringe) to discuss properly because it's a game where talking about the rules is an instant loss.

First of all, she specifically wants to make breakfast & wear heels & tidy up for Christian Grey, a charming chiseled bazillionaire. And this is perfectly understandable: if she’s going to surrender, it should be to someone worthy, who will take her somewhere worth going. It would be humiliating to do this for some pothead, some clown who just wants her to scrub his unrinsed dishes. There’s dignity (for men & women) in swearing fealty to a righteous King, but not a petty bureaucrat.

So while your statement is correct for a certain type of person, talking about it is disqualifying because now there's a chance you're just miming something that's support to be natural. Or you're not that type of person at all, in which case it's revolting for you to be thinking about this at all.

This gender dynamic stuff is really difficult (and cringe) to discuss properly because it's a game where talking about the rules is an instant loss.

You can talk about it here! You just need to be very precise, write lots of long sentences, etc. See ilforte's posts about jews - lots of detail, context, arguments, etc.

I think the implication is that would still count as an instant loss--from the perspective of a woman reading it. Talking about the game is unsexy.

I observe that their support for immigration is related more to hating their own men than it is loving these other men, which really changes the whole thing.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats