This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Two leftist policies where I can understand the power dynamics but not the attitude: open borders for military-aged third-world men, relaxed (or none at all) prosecution on criminals, especially military-aged minorities who commit brazen acts of murder/assault/robbery.
As is always the case, these policies exist because a lot of parties benefit. Open borders is supported by capital, homeowners (keeps housing prices pumping), and leftists who gain the patronage of the newcomers. Criminals also help various parties. They drive out right-wingers (i.e. families). They use a huge amount of services that employ leftists. Like immigrants they become patrons to the left, to some degree.
I can see why these things are allowed to continue, but the above analysis is missing the source of intense passion that these issues receive. I don't think Amazon ever pushed for open borders, they just didn't complain end enjoyed the cheap labour. Homeowners don't go to open borders rallies because they want another point of appreciation. Chesa Boudin wants prisoners released because it's strategic. On these two issues specifically, there is only one source of intense passion: single, college-educated women.
This is confusing. Women are more risk-averse and place a higher value on safety, but at the same time they are advocating for violent criminals and random foreigners. There is also a strong element of hatred towards their own countrymen present in this, which makes sense given the policy but does not make sense given that they're ladies. It's similar to the pit bull owner thing. What's up with this? I've seen the meme around pseudopregnancy before and it fits OK, but it's not clear why criminals and foreigners would be the subject of this affection over anything else.
Maybe if a women feel rejected by or reject their own tribe themselves, they attempt to undermine it in the hopes of getting conquered by a different tribe? That seems overly complicated though, the answer to this should feel simple because it's emotional. Help me out here.
(I'm obviously speaking from an European perspective. American perspective may have differences)
There are no "open borders for military-aged third-world men", and apart from some groups of committed anarchists and other subject-oriented activists, it's not a real thing that is advocated. There are refugee and asylum programs, sure and these enjoy support from the Left, but these are not "open borders", any more than, say, any nightclub that lets in some people but also applies selectiveness as to who it lets in and for how long has "open doors". It should be noted that by far the largest and the most popular entry of refugees to Europe in recent years has not been military-aged third-world men - it has been Ukrainian women, of all ages, and children. Insofar as I've observed, the same peolple advocating for refugee/asylum policies have advocated for that entry just as eagerly.
Furthermore, in my experience, for an average left-winger (again, in Europe), this is really not a major issue. Right-wingers get far more fervent than immigration and borders than left-wingers at any time, and also seem to assume that the opposite side must by its nature share that same fervor, expect in opposite direction. This has frequently caused some consternation and bafflement amongst the left, especially when right-wingers bring the immigration issue to random other topics and then accuse the left of wishing to dodge the issue when the left wants to continue discussing the topic itself, not the immigration sidetrack.
What's the reason for supporting refugee and asylum programs? Again, in my experience, it's a belief that they're an essential part of the framework of human rights treaties that underpins democracy and the entire international system and would cause considerable danger of backsliding on these fronts if it comes down. The concept of "human rights" is etched in the minds of the modern Left very firmly indeed, and once something's written in a treaty, well, it's a part of the system now and must be defended among the other parts. However, as said, in this view it's just one issue among many others, not (generally) the central part of this worldview.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-statistics-year-ending-march-2022/how-many-people-are-detained-or-returned
So if you illegally cross the border, there is a 90% chance that you get to stay. Even if you are removed, nothing stops you just... trying again. What can that possibly be but de facto open borders?
I'm not sure how you guys do your statistics, but it seems to me that "the number of people who enter the UK illegally" is not necessarily the same as "the number of people who are detained for entering the UK illegally." Presumably some number are not detected.
Also true, but I can only use the numbers we have. You don't know what you don't know, after all.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link