This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I don’t see why a woman should have any right to a man’s earnings after termination of the marriage. Being a good companion and a good parent is easy. Making money is hard. If one parent stayed at home while the other worked, if there’s a divorce, the idle parent should owe compensation for the time they twiddled their thumbs and watched teletubbies on the other’s dime: they’ve had their fun, it’s their turn to work now.
I smell a stuffy prudishness in your condemnation these men: are you familiar with the modern concept of no-fault divorce? No one gives a shit who fucked who, and even less how the paramour dressed.
Right to spousal support started because, in the ideal world of "women do not work outside the home", once divorced a woman had little to no chance of income of her own. If you threw her out for a newer model, it was considered only fair to save her from ending up on the streets until she got a job or married again.
"The idle parent" shows your lack of comprehension of how a household works.
Funny, I thought the entire point of the rant about women was that men very much would give a shit if their wife fucked another man, and if she dressed like a slut. Or if she left her nice hardworking ordinary guy husband for a bad boy who looked cool but was trashy.
McKenzie was not at fault in the divorce, Jeff was: he broke up the marriage not because they had grown apart or because she was a bad wife and mother, but because he went through a midlife crisis and fell for a trashy vamp whose only assets are the plastic tits she constantly flashes.
Yeah but the game has changed on both fronts. Incomes are more equitable between genders, and whilst domestic duties are still difficult the average Divorcee isn't an Irish Catholic Mother of 14 that needs to wash and darn the socks by hand. I think there's a potential middleground between the two approaches in which it is possible to acknowledge marriage as a partnership, whilst still feeling that divorce settlements far, far, far beyond the amount it'd take to literally retire and have a comfortable rest of life are a bit outlandish.
More options
Context Copy link
God forbid any woman would find herself in financial difficulty and would have to earn a living, like any man ever.
Single guys spend maybe 2 hours a week on household chores. When they move in with a woman the weekly dose per household goes to 16 hours, without any kids. Most of the housework done by women is busywork, deadweight loss. They tidy and clean in circles, and if that’s not enough waste, they remodel. They brush the slabs outside, where people walk, and want the roof power-washed, where no one ever goes.
We’re not all the same, with the same rants, you know. I accept that adults can fuck who they want, as our legislation says, and I want that rule applied fairly.
You seem to have a great deal of hostility towards another woman, based on her appearance. I’ll put it down as a data point in favour of slut-shaming being mostly intrasexual competition.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
In the case of McKenzie Bezos, she was functionally his business partner at the founding of Amazon and it simply hadn't been structured that way because they were married. This seems like a reasonable thing for the courts to decide in the event of divorce.
More to your point, being a good wife and mother is not, actually, easy. It isn't a super g-loaded task but housewives should be recognized for their valuable role and marital property in the event of a divorce seems fair. Neither Gates nor Bezos are poor after their divorces(which, again, were easily avoidable by those men).
She put a few stamps on early orders, that must entitle her to half the future earnings of the man who created and worked all his life as CEO of that company. I think not.
We live in a time where every wife feels like an “equal-value partner” in their husband’s business, and the laws we made agree with them. But they are not.
I understand it's always the man's fault and he always has to pay. If he cheats, well he got what he deserved. If she cheats, he failed to nurture a woman's love, he didn't treat her right, and you wouldn't want to slut shame a woman anyway, and besides, she 'contributed' to the marriage, so here's the bill again.
At every level of society, at every age, women get more than they put in. Starting at university, where they have been 56/44 for decades despite working far less, through marriage, divorce, and pensions, where they live longer after having contributed less. And the more we hand over to them, the more oppressed they feel.
That's very much not what she was granted in the divorce. She received a minor portion of their marital assets. Bezos kept the vast majority.
I do not own a house. My wife and I own a house. If somehow we had to divide our assets, I can't rightfully say it is all mine, get bent woman.
That is only a convention. Society has retained features of ancestral marriage that benefit women and jettisoned the rest. They come from a time where housewives would bring far more economic benefit into the marriage (a dowry, tending the chickens etc) .
What if I said: “get bent woman, it’s my money, you did not work for it. You never had full ownership of my assets, only the usufruct, and that limited right lapsed with the divorce.” Obviously the courts would disagree. But their opinion is not a law of nature.
Women are only so eager to get married, and then divorced, (and men reluctant) because our laws give them huge financial benefits for doing so. We have structured society so that the ideal, most high-paying career for a woman, is marrying a rich man. And then we wonder why they are not in STEM and contributing to society as much as men.
I sense a divorced man in our presence.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It is not ‘always the man’s fault’ to believe that, in these two specific cases, it’s the fault of the man. Indeed, the rule of thumb most people would use to blame Jeff and Bill is that adultery is a major fault committed by the party who engages in it.
Life isn’t entirely fair, but ‘Jeff Bezos having to pay out to his early business partner because he couldn’t keep his pants on’ is not a great example. We live in a world where early google employees got it made even if they were cooks, ‘successful startups give huge payouts to early employees, even if they’re not worth it’ is just how our society works, and this is a delayed example because marriage necessarily changes property arrangements.
Your preferred religious morality rules are not applied fairly. Are you in a position to punish women financially for adultery like you think cheating men deserve? No. Because the system officially runs on very different principles (egalitarian & sexually permissive) that aren’t applied fairly either.
Partly because guys like you refuse to apply the same censure to women as you do to men, women get to pick which sort of marriage they’re in at any given time for maximal advantage.
Yes. Obviously it's much rarer because house husbands are still very uncommon, but tens of thousands of men receive alimony. A relatively small fraction of the total, but again that's because there is less reason to award alimony in the case a husband who continues to work throughout a marriage, especially when, as is true in most cases, they out-earn their wife.
You're a progressive, Harold. Why would you want to punish people for adultery?
I think alimony is a completely outdated concept. There is no reason to award it ever. The solution to the problem of the law encouraging women to mooch off men (and alimony is only a small part of that) is not to make it easier for men to mooch off women.
It's not about punishing people, it's about an implied obligation. If (for instance) a woman interrupts or gives up a career while married, whatever you think about who has is 'hardest', that is very obviously done on the understanding that this loss in current and future earnings is fine because the man will continue to earn. If he then pulls the rug out from under her because he's had a mid-life crisis and wants to run off with the secretary, he should have to make good his obligations. If you don't like those obligations, don't get married. If we could bring up the money for alimony from the ether, that would be great because I don't care about 'punishing' the adulterer, but obviously we can't.
Implied obligation, uh-hu. So if the housewife cheats, she should be financially left in the cold, right? She did not fulfill her implied obligation of fidelity. Or if she wants to leave with the pool-boy, same, she should be financially punished for rug-pulling the contract like her husband is if he cancels.
That is not obvious at all. It’s a pro-moocher perspective.
To put gender out of it, let’s say my gay lover was a doctor or a banker, and I lived idly at his mansion, drove his porsche, and occasionally walked his dog. It would be ludicrous for me to pretend that my lazy ass ‘gave up my earnings’ on the understanding that his income will support me in the future. If the relationship ended, far from demanding he hand over his assets , I would thank him for letting me use his stuff while we were together, and be on my way. It is not some great sacrifice to not work, it is a privilege.
People don’t like them, and they are not getting married. The obligations are not fixed in stone. If we made them better and fairer, people may get married more, and hate each other less.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link