site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

105
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Probably worth pointing out that you also need to reconstitute the 'middle class' as a major social demographic, which is where women can safely marry a guy and reasonably expect to live in comfort and raise kids to an acceptable standard and not experience much 'buyer's remorse' when she looks around at other women's lives. This means she can settle for a guy without feeling like she just settled.

Because in a situation where 10% of the guys are making huge amounts of money, 80% are barely scraping by, I suspect that women won't deign to marry a guy in that bottom 80% so long as she will be constantly wondering if she has a shot at landing one of those 10% guys.

While reconstituting a robust middle class would be nice for a whole host of reasons and is worth pursuing, I don't think it would be particularly important for reinstituting traditional marriage. Traditional marriage had been around for most of Western society's lifespan even when there wasn't really a middle class, e.g. the medieval age.

I would suggest that the conditions of the medieval age made marriage a more necessary institution for survival purposes, which has been almost lost now.

I'd further suggest that maintaining a middle-class standard of living is one of the few likely benefits of marriage in the modern age, so that might make it a necessary condition for the modern age to bring marriage rates up.;

Indeed. Back in the times of the patriarchy, the normalization of early monogamous marriage basically served as life insurance for women - most of them could safely assume they'll get selected by someone while still young. Now this is gone, and I suspect it plays a large role in demographic collapse.