site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

105
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I've written an article in which I discuss a somewhat common idea regarding the idea of trans people "existing" [1]. Some trans rights activists (TRAs) refer to denying the statement "transwomen are women" as denying the existence of trans people. Another manifestation of this is when people argue that denying that transwomen are women is threatening to transwomen's existence. The same applies to transmen of course. I argue that these arguments rely on ambiguity in language about "existence." Denying the existence of transwomen seems very silly because that is an unusual way to describe rejecting that a transwoman actually is a woman. Phrasing this as a threat to existence evokes thoughts of genocide. I think this is another case of language being used in an unusual way that is misleading, although perhaps not intentionally. This description of "anti-trans" attitudes should be avoided as it is not accurate and morally charged in a misleading way.

[1] https://parrhesia.substack.com/p/do-transgender-people-exist

Unironically just read every LessWrong article about Definitions. In a sane world, we'd just create new words to distinguish between transwomen and women and call it a day.

Do you have any suggestions for words for transwomen?

Non-consensus Women?

Is there anything wrong with the term "transwomen?" Some people would say the term is offensive, and you should simply write "trans woman."

I think the OP's blog post lays it out simplest: this is a policy question disguised as a definition question. No amount of definitions will cause anyone to be OK with me saying things like "male trans woman." Socially/mentally bucketing Lia Thomas and Joe Biden together is an example of one such contentious policy.

No amount of gerrymandered definitions will change which concepts people think are worth using.

Socially/mentally bucketing Lia Thomas and Joe Biden together is an example of one such contentious policy.

And socially bucketing Lia Thomas with biological females has clearly been contentious. TBH just looking at pictures of him on the podium with smaller women gives off a sense of wrongness to me.

It's contention all the way down. The question is whose position should win.

I would not be opposed to some compromise position *where we accepted that our use of terms like "transwomen" was clearly just acknowledging a polite fiction and not to be used to imply something deeper and to seize more and more absurd concessions (like Thomas on a podium with women). But it's clear now that the trans activist side is utterly opposed to this and feel they shouldn't have to compromise and should enforce their ideology on everyone.

So why should I care if there's a backlash that attempts to destroy even the compromise position and roll us back to "contentious" outcomes like "males shower with males"? As far as I can tell it's a solution that solves problems for vast segments of society, as opposed to creating problems for all of us in the name of a tiny minority.