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ZorbaTHut  1yr ago (text post)   44948 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

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Marxism, however, isn't when you suggest a particular group of people are bad,

Yeah, because like I already said, Marxism is when you suggest we live in an exploitative system, where people are divided into classes, one designated the oppressor, and the other the oppressed.

I gave you a definition, and I gave you examples proving this is not about generic progressivism. Why do you keep claiming that it is?

This is just Jordan Peterson's idea of what Marxism is, based, apparently, on reading a political pamphlet. Marxism is a critique of political economy, or an analysis of capitalism. One of the intermediate conclusions is indeed that capitalism requires a class division (or, that it is constituted in a social division of ownership). Further conclusions are that this actually limits productive capacity for example, and should be abandoned for the sake of scientific planning of the economy.

This is of course wrong, I'm just pointing out that wrongly interpreting a relatively small part of his ideas, abstracting it away from its foundamentally economic context into a completely generic "oppressor-oppressed" framework, is intellectually lazy and plain wrong. It is wrong because the moralistic dimension is unimportant to the actual intellectual content, and this approach is what set Marx apart from the myriad of other socialists at the time or before him.

Feel free to disagree with the idea, but I don't see any honest way to blame it on Peterson. We have several published writings of people calling themselves Cultural Marxists, which explain that this is what Cultural Marxism is, and predate Peterson by decades.

Ok instead of substantiative criticism, which 'function' gave and seemed to ... slide right off, let's try rhetorical criticism

We have several published writings of people calling themselves Cultural Marxists, which explain that this is what Cultural Marxism is, and predate Peterson by decades

Imagine you're debating with a leftist. You - just as an example, no political analogy intended - assert something like 'conservatives are committed to equality in practice. and it's leftists who, despite their progressive religion, take action to harm equality at all times'. Your interlocutor says: "Many leftists took up the cause of equality long before conservatives did, predating them by centuries. Conservatives, indeed, fought equality tooth and nail, and conservative intellectual heroes were against equality - and they were the first to call themselves conservatives. Today's conservatives call themselves pro-equality, but it's all a facade".

Now, this may be true. Or it may not be. But - if you're reading this ... what can you conclude from it? Why can you believe it? Where is the evidence? The interlocutor is speaking to a conservative, who certainly believes conservatives are pro-"true equality, equality of opportunity" - and they are, at least at the moment - so they'll hear it, think "oh, but all the cons I know love equality", get mad, and move on. Instead - what are the names of those intellectuals, where can I read more about them, even by googling them? Maybe pull some excerpts from their wikipedia article? That'd be much more convincing - if you're arguing against someone who's lazy, you make sure they see the proof - and if they didn't know, it'll show that to them, viscerally. But that argument, or yours, can't actually convince anyone, because there's so little being said. Which authors who called themselves "cultural marxists"? Presumably you have specific authors in mind ... it'd have taken 5 seconds to write their names, and turn this from a bland statement to a statement of fact that's both researchable and contestable.

Now, this may be true. Or it may not be. But - if you're reading this ... what can you conclude from it? Why can you believe it? Where is the evidence? The interlocutor is speaking to a conservative, who certainly believes conservatives are pro-"true equality, equality of opportunity" - and they are, at least at the moment - so they'll hear it, think "oh, but all the cons I know love equality", get mad, and move on. Instead - what are the names of those intellectuals, where can I read more about them, even by googling them?

I have nothing against someone asking for a source, but please, drop the school teacher act, especially if your issues with me apply the same to the person I'm responding to.

Maybe pull some excerpts from their wikipedia article?

Happy to oblige:

Cultural Marxism refers to a school or offshoot of Marxism that conceives of culture as central to the legitimation of oppression, in addition to the economic factors that Karl Marx emphasized.[1] An outgrowth of Western Marxism (especially Antonio Gramsci and the Frankfurt School) and finding popularity in the 1960s as cultural studies, Cultural Marxism argues that what appear as traditional cultural phenomena intrinsic to Western society, for instance the drive for individual acquisition associated with capitalism, nationalism, the nuclear family, gender roles, race and other forms of cultural identity;[1] are historically recent developments that help to justify and maintain hierarchy. Cultural Marxists use Marxist methods (historical research, the identification of economic interest, the study of the mutually conditioning relations between parts of a social order) to try to understand the complexity of power in contemporary society and to make it possible to criticise what, cultural Marxists propose, appears natural but is in fact 'ideological'.

(...)

That'd be much more convincing - if you're arguing against someone who's lazy, you make sure they see the proof - and if they didn't know, it'll show that to them, viscerally.

I've seen a lot of these sort of conversations, it doesn't work like that. Half the time what happens is they stop responding, and when the topic comes up again in the future, the conversation just resets.

So, your original statement was that "racism = prejudice + power" is "cultural marxism" because cultural marxism is "the idea that we live in an exploitative system, where people are divided into classes, one designated the oppressor, and the other the oppressed."

My claim was that the latter statement was extremely broad, and is held in various forms by many historical and present groups unrelated to marxism.

Cultural Marxism refers to a school or offshoot of Marxism that conceives of culture as central to the legitimation of oppression, in addition to the economic factors that Karl Marx emphasized.[1] An outgrowth of Western Marxism (especially Antonio Gramsci and the Frankfurt School) and finding popularity in the 1960s as cultural studies, Cultural Marxism argues that what appear as traditional cultural phenomena intrinsic to Western society, for instance the drive for individual acquisition associated with capitalism, nationalism, the nuclear family, gender roles, race and other forms of cultural identity;[1] are historically recent developments that help to justify and maintain hierarchy. Cultural Marxists use Marxist methods (historical research, the identification of economic interest, the study of the mutually conditioning relations between parts of a social order) to try to understand the complexity of power in contemporary society and to make it possible to criticise what, cultural Marxists propose, appears natural but is in fact 'ideological'.

That's from your article. You'll notice that this doesn't directly mention 'enemy classes' at all. Clearly this phenomena - the cultural/social turn, the new left, frankfurt school, critical theory - are related in some ways to the modern left, wokes, progressives. Although it is worth noting they are correct about many things in some ways - things you might call right wing - they criticize the role of money and big business in perverting culture, popular media and music as a tool by those with power, alienation, the facileness of consumerism. But the ideas in the above paragraph are very different from a simple idea of 'enemy classes, not just economically. And they share similarities to the 'all girls can do what boys can', don't they - socially conditioned traits, gender roles, opposing hierarchy, and crucially liberation from oppression and restriction all things they have in common with "Races r the same", "girl can do what boy can do". Aside from the veneer of "lets all agree" vs "i very disagree", it's the same thing - universalism, progressivism, liberating the oppressed, etc.

So, your original statement was that "racism = prejudice + power" is "cultural marxism" because cultural marxism is "the idea that we live in an exploitative system, where people are divided into classes, one designated the oppressor, and the other the oppressed."

Your original question was "what was specifically Marxist about class conflict" and that was the answer.

My claim was that the latter statement was extremely broad, and is held in various forms by many historical and present groups unrelated to marxism.

It's not extremely broad. There just aren't that many groups analyzing social relations through the lens of oppressor and oppressed classes. I'm pretty sure you will have a hard time finding a framework that does so, which is not descended from Marxism.

You'll notice that this doesn't directly mention 'enemy classes' at all.

In plain language, what do you think this means:

We are, in Marx's terms, "an ensemble of social relations" and we live our lives at the core of the intersection of a number of unequal social relations based on hierarchically interrelated structures which, together, define the historical specificity of the capitalist modes of production and reproduction and underlay their observable manifestations.

You already claimed that what I said is extremely broad, even though it's very easy to follow. How would you react if I quoted this instead?

Although it is worth noting they are correct about many things in some ways

Why does the concern about statements being extremely broad, and is held in various forms by many historical and present groups unrelated to marxism, vanish when you happen to agree with them?

Aside from the veneer of "lets all agree" vs "i very disagree", it's the same thing - universalism, progressivism, liberating the oppressed, etc.

False. "I have a dream" and "girl can do what boy can do" allow racism and sexism to go both ways, while "patriarchy" and "racism = prejudice + power" hold only one group can be racist and/or sexist.

I'm blaming Peterson for popularizing a very shallow reading of Marx, not the concept of cultural Marxism.

Why blame him instead of the Cultural Marxists themselves?

... blame the cultural marxists for peterson popularizing a shallow reading of marx? huh?

He wouldn't popularize their reading of Marx, if they didn't read him this way.

I mean ... let's say I said that abolitionsim is marxism. It suggests we live in an exploitative system (slavery), where people are divided into classes (free men and slaves), one designated the oppressor (owners), the other designated the oppressed (slaves). White nationalism? Cultural marxism. Exploitative system (ZOG), divided into classes (jews and goyim), one designated the oppressor (jews), the other designated the oppressed (goyim).

I don't think these are marxism! Yet they fit your definition about as well as patriarchy does.

Yes.

Feel free to disagree with thiis categorisation (but provide arguments when you do so), but don't pretend you don't understand it, or that it's an attack on generic progressivism.

the point is that, if the only reason you're calling it "marxism" is that above, then ... it isn't marxism, because those kinds of conflicts have existed for millenia.

Marxism is an analytical framework, not the conflict itself.

According to your argument Marxism doesn't exist at all, because wage exploitation by the owners of the means of production predates Marx.

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