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Hang on. You're assuming I'm implying something in this comment that I don't think is a point I'm making. Notice I said average.
The average person who writes code. Not an UMC programmer who works for FAANG.
I strongly disagree that LLMs "suck at code". The proof of the pudding is in the eating; and for code, if it compiles and has the desired functionality.
More importantly, even from my perspective of not being able to exhaustively evaluate talent at coding (whereas I can usually tell if someone is giving out legitimate medical advice), there are dozens of talented, famous programmers who state the precise opposite of what you are saying. I don't have an exhaustive list handy, but at the very least, John Carmack? Andrej Karpathy? Less illustrious, but still a fan, Simon Willison?
Why should I privilege your claims over theirs?
Even the companies creating LLMs are use >10% of LLM written code for their own internal code bases. Google and Nvidia have papers about them being superhumanly good at things like writing optimized GPU kernels. Here's an example from Stanford:
https://crfm.stanford.edu/2025/05/28/fast-kernels.html
Or here's an example of someone finding 0day vulnerabilities in Linux using o3.
I (barely) know how to write code. I can't do it. I doubt even the average, competent programmer can find zero-days in Linux.
Of course, I'm just a humble doctor, and not an actual employable programmer. Tell me, are the examples I provided not about LLMs writing code? If they are, then I'm not sure you've got a leg to stand on.
TLDR: Other programmers, respected ones to boot, disagree strongly with you. Some of them even write up papers and research articles proving their point.
Yes, that is indeed what I meant as well.
I agree. And it doesn't. Code generated by LLMs routinely hallucinates APIs that simply don't exist, has grievous security flaws, or doesn't achieve the desired objective. Which is not to say humans never make such mistakes (well, they never make up non-existent APIs in my experience but the other two happen), but they can learn and improve. LLMs can't do that, at least not yet, so they are doing worse than humans.
I'm not saying you should! I'm not telling you that mine is the only valid opinion; I did after all say that reasonable people can disagree on this. My issue is solely that your comment comes off as dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as too inexperienced to have an informed opinion. When you say "They can't code? Have you seen the average code monkey?", it implies "because if you had, you wouldn't say that LLMs are worse". That is what I object to, not your choice to listen to other programmers who have different opinions than mine.
Please post an example of what you claim is a "routine" failure by a modern model (2.5 Pro, o3, Claude 3.7 Sonnet). This should be easy! I want to understand how you could possibly know how to program and still believe what you're writing (unless you're just a troll, sigh).
I've tried to have this debate with you in the past and I'm not doing it again, as nothing has changed. I'm not even trying to debate it with self_made_human really - I certainly wouldn't believe me over Carmack if I was in his shoes. My point here is that one should not attribute "this person disagrees with my take" to "they don't know what they're talking about".
Right, and I asked you for evidence last time too. Is that an unreasonable request? This isn't some ephemeral value judgement we're debating; your factual claims are in direct contradiction to my experience.
Right, and I gave it then. Which is why I am not going to bother doing it this time. Like I said, nothing has changed.
What the hell? You most definitely did NOT give any evidence then. Nor in our first argument. I'm not asking so I can nitpick. I would genuinely like to see a somewhat-compact example of a modern LLM failing at code in a way that we both, as programmers, can agree "sucks".
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