This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I am all on board if this can lead to united Kurdistan. Erbil is probably the only good place to live in the region.
That is a very strange assertion to me. Why is Erbil a nice place to live? What does "uniting" Kurdistan achieve for you?
Fixes one of the greatest injustices in the post ottoman collapse. Erbil is absolutely great. It is the safest place with kindest people in all of the arab peninsula and Iran. It is pro western, really peaceful and have the best kebabs. United Kurdistan will create a strong center in the region that will be pro west and will weaken simultaneously Iran, Syria, Iraq and Turkey. And until Erdogan and his faction are in power everything that weakens Turkey is unadulterated good. If the secular people come in power it will be different, but so far it is long shot.
There are many (much much greater) injustices in the Ottoman collapse and many people who constantly try to “fix” them. You see them often standing trial in The Hague or topping CIA most-wanted lists for crimes against humanity. Kurds didn’t get a state because they are a loose combination of mountain tribes who speak a somewhat similar language to each other with zero history of having a state or associating with each other politically. It’s not a coincidence any Kurdish political group immediately becomes a proxy servant for a larger state.
Speaking of proxy politics, did you ever actually wonder why Iraqi Kurdistan is a relatively stable safe and prospering place? Would you mind googling a bit about the Turkish military bases (136 of them according to BBC) in the country providing this security or how much of their economy is based on trade and investment from Turkey or how Iraqi Kurdish politics actually manage to stay stable? (Hint: it’s totally controlled by two clans which are both Turkish state proxies and compete/rotate for offices peacefully via negotiations with Turkish foreign ministry)
I understand you have some personal grudges against Turkey and Iran but how much more do Syria and Iraq need to be weakened for this great pro-western Middle East to emerge in your imagination? Have you by chance checked any news since year 1999?
What are these “secular people” in Turkey going to do once in power to please you? Can you give me some examples of how Turkey is a more Islamic country today than in 2001? Also I am looking forward to some examples of any Islamitising influence out of Turkey that caused anyone ever any trouble. Somehow Sunni jihadi movement is entirely funded and armed and manned by the Saudi and Qatar, both hardcore American allies/clients, but the grand strategies for fighting it never involve fixing any great injustices in those countries
Edit: yeah kebabs are good but they are good literally everywhere. Is Erbil the only place you ever visited in the Middle East or something?
Hagia Sophia. Erdogan keeping interest rates low during could also fall under this but I have a suspicion that he used it so his allies can inflate their debts and buy bankrupts business for cents on the dollar.
Committing to hardline Kemalism. Again. So we can finally accept Turkey in the EU. Before saying something - I don't believe in freedom of religion, but in freedom from religion.
Hmm... here is quick shawarma/kebab comparison from the places I have been. We don't discuss in europe because it is mediocre at best. And in north africa I don't have much impressions. Aside from Erbil - in Istanbul they are meh, in Ankara are really good, ditto in Ismir, bland un Dubai, forgettable in Oman, let's not talk about pakistan, surprisingly decent are the afghani ones, but probably the best are in Uzbekistan. The kazah one i ate them from the other side of the border with china - so can't comment. Lahmacuns, kunefe, gozleme and pide are other beer - the only place in the world they make them right is in Turkey (everywhere).
Turkey is too powerful and Erdogan is eyeing parts of the Balkans and probably Cyprus. So I either want the country to be weaken or to self secularize. I also don't want pro western middle east - weak and busy with infighting also gets the job done. Greece is too weak to be counter balance, so is Bulgaria. And I doubt that NATO will do shit if he attacks any one of those two countries.
So yes. I want Turkey to have problems east and south, as to not look north and east
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link