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PaperclipPerfector  13d ago (text post)   26551 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 28, 2025

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The abrupt end with little chance for handover to a different org/funding source.

How something is ended can matter quite a lot. This was not done gracefully. Or constitutionally, but that's a procedural issue.

I don't think PEPFAR and home construction training programs are a worthwhile comparison.

You really, really don't have to sell me on the downsides of humanitarian interventions as a general rule.

The abrupt end with little chance for handover to a different org/funding source.

How does this change the problem of the program being bad? PEPFAR is bad. It keeps people alive for the sole purpose of spending money to keep them alive.

How something is ended can matter quite a lot. This was not done gracefully. Or constitutionally, but that's a procedural issue.

Its end was at least as legitimate as its illegitimate beginning. The program is obviously unconstitutional.

I don't think PEPFAR and home construction training programs are a worthwhile comparison.

Why not? These are both hypothetical subsidies to Africans. In one scenario you subsidize sexual deviancy, in the other you subsidize housing. This is a worthwhile comparison in that obviously subsidizing sexual deviancy is bad.

PEPFAR is bad. It keeps people alive for the sole purpose of spending money to keep them alive.

I suppose if you place zero or negative value on the lives saved by PEPFAR, then yeah, obviously. End it yesterday.

Not sure I'd agree with that proposition, however. I'm not much of a Christian, but I do think George W. Bush had his heart in a charitable place when he got the program going.

The program is obviously unconstitutional.

Congress allocating funds? Is all foreign aid unconstitutional by definition? Generally, the constitution is far more free-wheeling on doing things for foreign policy than it is for domestic policy.

This is a worthwhile comparison in that obviously subsidizing sexual deviancy is bad.

And being able to build houses would also be bad? Like what on earth do you think you're arguing by comparison here?

Those are very different things, to me, personally. Like, sure, most sexual deviancy probably happens in houses, which someone had to build, but that's true of a broad range of human activities. Am I to understand that building more houses would lead to more sexual deviancy?

Like houses are not inherently bad, right? And training locals to build their own housing gets around the classic problem of just providing a good such that the local market demand is satisfied and domestic production gets hurt. Now such training may or may not be a worthwhile charitable intervention, but it's not obviously terrible by default.

You can argue that PEPFAR is not just ineffective, but bad for reasons of sexual deviancy or whatever else without talking about African housebuilding, I think.

I suppose if you place zero or negative value on the lives saved by PEPFAR, then yeah, obviously. End it yesterday.

Not sure I'd agree with that proposition, however. I'm not much of a Christian, but I do think George W. Bush had his heart in a charitable place when he got the program going.

I mean, the market puts little to no value on their lives. I am simply pointing out that there is nothing different about keeping people alive for the sake of keeping them alive in PEPFAR than any other boring charity like food stamps or Medicaid. I suppose these people kept alive can also threaten to immigrate, which is a bad thing. So yeah. Why is this "effective?"

Congress allocating funds? Is all foreign aid unconstitutional by definition? Generally, the constitution is far more free-wheeling on doing things for foreign policy than it is for domestic policy.

Foreign aid is arguably unconstitutional, but the inception of PEPFAR was not approved by Congress. They may arguably have adopted it later on, but the inception was just GWB going rogue.

And being able to build houses would also be bad? Like what on earth do you think you're arguing by comparison here?

No the point of the comparison is that my house building program IS actually good and effective, so long as you keep it small in scope. You scout 10 potentially talented homebuilders and spend time, money, and resources training them. Then they go out and make their world better by building homes. PEPFAR does nothing of the sort. It just lets anyone who contracted a deadly STD keep on living with no scrutiny as to whether they can or will make the world better by their continued existence, and past performance indicates not so.

You can argue that PEPFAR is not just ineffective, but bad for reasons of sexual deviancy or whatever else without talking about African housebuilding, I think.

I was posing a hypothetical charitable educational program that had the potential for being effective, not just a self licking ice cream cone.

I mean, the market puts little to no value on their lives. I am simply pointing out that there is nothing different about keeping people alive for the sake of keeping them alive in PEPFAR than any other boring charity like food stamps or Medicaid. I suppose these people kept alive can also threaten to immigrate, which is a bad thing. So yeah. Why is this "effective?"

If you don't accept the philosophical foundations of universalisms wrt human life then, yeah, sure. No argument from me. Using markets to determine the value of a human life comes with a lot of caveats in the best of times.

Foreign aid is arguably unconstitutional, but the inception of PEPFAR was not approved by Congress. They may arguably have adopted it later on, but the inception was just GWB going rogue.

Sure, I don't know enough to debate its whole origin story. And had I been president I would not used taxpayer dollars in such a fashion. I'm actually not aware of detailed constitutional arguments/cases for/against foreign aid as a whole category. It seems if a national defense argument can be made, then it's going to be allowable by default.

PEPFAR does nothing of the sort. It just lets anyone who contracted a deadly STD keep on living with no scrutiny as to whether they can or will make the world better by their continued existence, and past performance indicates not so.

I don't think I disagree with you here, overall. I'd just say that we could have compromised/hedged and ended U.S. involvement as a handoff, not as a near-immediate shutdown.

I do accept the value inherent to human life, I just dont see how it translates into the moral argument for charity. PEPFAR in particular I dont see the argument for the extreme reaction to its removal when it obviously re-counts its "lives saved" every year. There is probably someone who did some math regarding something like QALs/$ or something similar and pitched PEPFAR as super effective or something (I am guessing this is where they are laundering in "effective"?), but if you aren't heavily discounting the "quality" in those QALs for an African PERPAR recipient as opposed to the children of a fallen US Veteran your brain is a bit bamboozled.

I suppose if you place zero or negative value on the lives saved by PEPFAR, then yeah, obviously. End it yesterday.

How much of the lives of the Americans paying are you willing to sacrifice to allow Africans to have happy fun times without consequences?

Just approximating, I think it's about 30 dollars per taxpayer per year, (lazily 4.9 billion in 2024 / 161 million tax returns), for 20 million lives supported. A decent chunk less if you adjust for progressive taxation, though I'm too tired to actually estimate it. Just as a thought experiment scaling it up, would we burden every American taxpayer with 1-3,000 dollars per year to save 2 billion people? Maybe that's on the border, I think I'd lean yes. I don't think by itself PEPFAR counts too much as a slippery slope or anything because PEPFAR is kind of unique in terms of the cost efficiency or opportunity, there are no other PEPFARs. Disclaimer: not an EA type, don't know the nitty gritty, and happy to have someone correct me on the numbers if wrong.

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