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I think EA does have a fair share of pure altruists. I know of at least four people that have gone celibate over the last few years as a result of being too concentrated on their jobs (and I claim they could have had romantic success if they had chosen to). I think coordinating around "we are doing the most good" also has an easy attractor in pure altruism.
The thing I was pointing at is that the job of the apparatchiks was to nominally be pure altruists towards the population of Russia as a whole, and this predictably failed.
That there are some "pure" altruists in EA is not what I am picking at. The essays I reference are targeted at that very phenomenon because it is a thing some people do. Selection effects are what they are. You are making points without the knowledge of what is already been discussed on the topic. Go google "avoiding EA burnout" and you'll find a plenty of stuff on this front.
The thing I am pointing at is that comparing Soviet anything to EA is apples to hand grenades. Donors are not coerced. OpenPhil analysts are not employees of the state, and aimed at "doing the most good" insofar as they can figure that out. The failure mode that is most apt is the standard "NGO Industrial Complex" where organizations exist to exist, not to actually solve the problem in their mission statement.
People have been killed in the name of EA ideas. One can claim that this was the work of the criminal and mentally ill (and be right), but that's also what the Marxists say about their bad apples.
I, for one, think that if you gave soviet levels of power to the shrimp welfare people, they would be very unwise with it. I don't think that's an unreasonable view.
Such as? If we're referring to the Ziz stuff then well that's not going to cut it for me in that they were not part of "EA" in any meaningful sense for a long time before the real insanity began.
But also, plenty of people have been killed in the name of classic liberal ideas.
Probably! I can't get over that Classic Environmentalism is anti-interventionist to the point some want humanity to disappear, and then some EA types are so interventionist they want to basically eliminate nature because of the inherent suffering.
In the light of your own answer, what is the ideological component in EA that would prevent interventionist types, in principle, from being soviet tier hand grenades? I don't see it. I see the same type of unbounded consequentialism that can allow people to engage in the same sort of evil in the name of ultimate good.
EA has no provision against people thinking of themselves as bringing about a utopia, and that makes it a dangerous philosophy. And this is why Ziz killed people and SBF defrauded millions.
Marx was once a benign economics nerd too.
Well, there is no one "EA"; but broadly speaking EA exists within the liberal democratic view of human rights. So "unbounded consequentialism" isn't actually on the menu for policy interventions.
I'm personally a rule utilitarian / classic liberal, so I care about specific classic (negative) human rights and fostering material progress. So I like a lot of what EA is all about, but I have my differences. I do not like philosophical ignorant veils and ponds of kids, for example. In terms of rhetorical utility though, I very much enjoy using EA as a hammer to bludgeon progressives/leftists with.
I do not think it is fair to directly fault EA at large for Ziz and SBF. In the former case, they literally disavowed the individual and their ideas. In the latter case, they were too trusting (I just assume all crypto is a scam by default) and deserve some demerits for that, but SBF also fooled a great many worldly financial types outside of EA.
Again, this is an extremely broad criticism that applies to many religions and ideologies.
What's a "human right"? I'm not asking what you think, you clearly believe in some utilitarian formulation of natural law, likely in the style of J.S. Mill. That has boundaries I'm well familiar with.
I'm asking what most EA people believe.
Because in my experience it's a lot less solid than what you have in mind, generally more aligned to Rawls than Mill and almost entirely without bounds.
I do not believe that Effective Altruists would oppose vaccine mandates categorically under grounds of bodily autonomy, for instance.
I understand those as fair arguments, but they are the same fair arguments Khrushchev made for Stalin and that Marx made for Guesde. We are responsible for what we bring into the world, the purpose of a system is what it does, etc.
Of course. And I denounce them all as capable of the same horrors.
I think the typical EA isn't that far off of the typical Western liberal/progressive tradition in terms of their views on human rights?
I'm sure someone somewhere has done polling on this.
Ah well, even my own libertarian instincts allow exceptions for bodily autonomy violations under crisis conditions. No, Covid-19 didn't meet that threshold, but plenty of historic plagues would if we had a modern outbreak. The optimal level of coercion is not zero.
I very much do not think those are very similar things in kind or scale. To my knowledge, no one in EA leadership was encouraging or validating Ziz or SBF with awareness of their actual behavior/intent and denounced it all upon discovery. Any kind of interesting new ideological movement that grows is at risk of attracting crazies and grifters; what matters is how that's handled and I think at worst EA was fooled by SBF like many others.
I suppose one can commit to a very, very strong stance on individualism. Are you an anarcho-capitalist?
Sure, but principles that don't demand you sacrifice anything for them can hardly be deemed limiting principles. I'm sure you can do the work of designing those properly, but I don't really see that work being done and that doesn't bode well.
I'll commend Scott (or at least his past self) for doing some of that work. But I don't think it was anywhere near close enough.
Marx specifically disavowed Guesde and called himself "not a marxist". That's my point. Dr Frankenstein isn't absolved of the responsibility of building his Golem by casting it out.
No, I don't see anarchy as a realistic proposition. I guess I'm a paleo-liberal at this point or something to that effect.
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