This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Totally
I don't blame the Israeli people for being mad. I just don't think disproportionate violence is okay, even if provoked
I understand why everyone feels how they do, but as the peanut gallery I'm pointing and judging
Is there a (consistent) way to win a war without disproportionate violence? If you're better at fighting than your opponent, you will inflict more violence upon them than they do upon you (and if you're fighting in enemy territory/homeland, their civilians will suffer more than yours).
You're right
I struggle to call this a war though. It's insurgency whack a mole with a sprinkling of ethnic cleansing
There's no ethnic cleansing.
"Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area"
I'd say we're basically there
Which ethnic group, and where have they been moved? Calling anything that's going on "ethnic cleansing" is propaganda used when the propagandist thinks that "genocide" won't go over well. Israel has moved the population of Gaza around, but not along ethnic, racial, or religious lines.
I don't think it's propaganda? I feel like genocide and ethnic cleansing are different ways of slicing the same flavor of activity by severity. I'd define ethnic cleansing as what I said above, and genocide as that + "with the intent to permanently eliminate the group".
Ethnic group: Palestinians
Religion: Muslims
Where are they getting moved: ping-ponging back and forth between the North and South of the strip, the Israeli's would be even happier to push them into Egypt, but they can't.
Israel has an easy time bc Israeli Jews don't live in Gaza, but if they did, they obviously wouldn't be getting shuffled around the strip. I don't think ethnic cleansing requires there to be unaffected people in the geography to contrast against the effected people.
I genuinely have no idea what's true at this point with this conflict but this is pretty on the nose, even for the Levant gang
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rp31lk7mzo
Certainly not. Dividing a nation and moving all members of one ethnic group to one half while moving all members of another ethnic group to the other is "ethnic cleansing", but it is in no way genocide. However, this is not happening. Gaza is already basically "ethnically spotless". The only ethnic cleansing Israel did in Gaza was in 2005, when it removed its own settlers (often by force), and I don't think that's what anyone means by it now.
There are very few non-Palestinians and/or non-Muslims resident in Gaza, but those who exist have been moved around with the rest.
Amusingly, we got sucked into bickering about definitions, which I had actually hoped to avoid by using "ethnic cleansing" over the much more volatile "genocide". Admittedly, I opened up pretty flippantly, so maybe that was the wrong word, although it felt amusing and volatile in the moment.
My core thesis is that I think shuffling a bunch of humans around an area as you bomb it into gravel in an effort to wipe out an organization who's primary recruiting tool is the anger generated in humans who are being shuffled around an area as its bombed into gravel is equal parts evil and stupid. I don't really care what we call it at the end of the day, there is a metric shitload of human suffering happening, much of which is being deliberately and callously applied.
Gaza is one of the most efficient generators of human suffering I've ever been made aware of. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link