This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I find it bizarre that so little is being talked about the US border crisis right now. The numbers are shooting up like crazy.
Most of these "encounters" are essentially catch-and-release. The illegal immigrants are then given a court date to show up and naturally the vast majority never do.
Are Americans just tired of this subject? Trump running on this issue during the 2016 campaign and then essentially doing nothing to prevent it perhaps jaded people. I mean, would-be illegal migrants respond to signals. If more and more folks are allowed to flood in without a meaningful response then each new "caravan" will only get bigger. Perhaps Biden is trying to emulate Trudeau's hyperliberal immigration policies through purposeful inaction rather than Trudeau's open immigration targets.
Americans are quietly preparing for Brazilification. Half think it's a good thing—believing we'll pull it off in a way that Brazil mysteriously couldn't figure out, and the other half are worried and angry.
What's to say that hasn't been said?
What does "Brazilification" mean, exactly? Decrease of state capacity, most keenly felt in reduction of service quality, but without a corresponding reduction in state authority or tax levels?
I think it mostly implies an extreme economic bifurcation wherein the elites get to live in luxurious towers or gated neighborhoods with private guards and robust social services and get to enjoy the benefits of cosmopolitan globalism by jetting around to whichever major international hub they feel like visiting. And don't have to think much if at all about the state of the rest of the nation.
Whilst the poor end up living in densely packed favelas/apartment blocks/ghettos and while they are generally able to get by their chances at economic mobility are virtually nil so a large criminal element ends up taking root and providing an alternate, highly risky means of achieving the opulent lifestyle that simply cannot be ignored, and as violence becomes prevalent policing becomes more dangerous and cops end up becoming more violent which further sours the relationship between the underclass and the ruling class.
The middle class (such as it exists) probably end up having to put up tall fences and heavy security efforts to protect themselves from the criminal element that cannot be contained and are desperate to prey on the wealth that trickles down from on high. There are no trusted, effective, and non-corrupt public institutions to speak of.
Property crime, drug-fueled violence, and kidnappings shoot through the roof as policing becomes extremely hard outside of the few pockets of civilization that can be maintained against the rising tide of (relative) poverty.
And of course we get maximum 'diversity' which really just means that everyone hates everyone to for varying reasons. EXTREME low trust society as the social fabric that previously kept citizens together frays and decays, even as by many metrics society is finally achieving the demographic ideals that progressives aimed for all along.
Think of an ideal version of America with relatively large middle class, a persistent but small underclass, high economic mobility, a class of elites that are responsive to the needs of the citizenry and thus maintain some level of trust and accountability, and that generally enables every citizen to feel they're safe from violence and have a strong affinity for their neighbors regardless of race, class, religion, culture, etc.
Then imagine whatever the exact opposite of that ideal looks like in your head. THAT is Brazilification.
I'm skeptical that illegal immigration will lead to Brazilification.
Illegal immigrants can't vote and thus won't affect institutions much? They're incentivized to keep their head down to avoid deportation.
See The Myth of Hispanic Crime https://www.unz.com/runz/the-myth-of-hispanic-crime/ by noted leftist Ron Unz
A Brazilian I know claims that Brazil is one of the least racist countries he's been to, and he's traveled a lot. (He's not a Brazil booster, either -- I remember him being very cynical about Brazil's prospects, but it seemed like more of an underdevelopment thing -- poor education system etc.)
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link