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Pure vanity. A grave injustice and your life hang in the balance, this is not the time for such superficial concerns. If morality requires you to cry, you cry. If your duty requires you to die despised, then you swallow your ego and holler like a bahamian.
Btw, I don’t know, and thanks to mods’ I won’t know, but I’m pretty sure that Hlynka, as the NCO law-order-honor-type, would not back my defense at all, which I find amusing. As is tradition, since I’ve always maintained he should not be banned, even though he himself was the most pro-censorship of the mods.
The object level is important. Geeks have an easily exploited habit of trying to make rules that are agnostic to circumstances.
What's a good way to treat criminals? Put them in jail. What's a good way to treat accused criminals? Figure out if the accusation is correct, and put them in jail if they are. What's the best way to treat accused criminals if you don't want to figure out if they're correct? There isn't one. Anything you do has to have the step "figure out if the accusation is correct".
If Hlykna is unjustly accused, almost anything he does in response is okay. If he's justly accused, almost anything except submitting to jail is wrong. If he's justly accused and thinks he isn't, that doesn't change what responses are right and wrong, which depend on the true situation, not on what's in his head.
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If you really believe that begging might save you, there is an argument for it, but otherwise, no, I can only despise the "morality" you advocate.
Also, your example is of someone being unjustly and arbitrarily executed, not someone being justly punished for his actions.
You've said that begging here CAN save you, even rescue you from a permaban. Which encourages begging, which is why you shouldn't do it.
That is not what I said. You did not misunderstand me. You are pretending to misunderstand me. Stop doing that.
I did not misunderstand you, nor am I pretending to. I am merely seeing the issue from a perspective you don't share. If you permaban someone and they go away and never come back and never contact you again, they remain permabanned; this is what "permaban" means, of course. If they go to you and request to come back and promise they'll be a good boy, you might let them come back. You don't want to call that begging, but I can't see how it is anything else; you're saying the only way back is through the supplicant's door.
I'm going to pretend you're not being a bad faith ankle-biter here.
The only way back is by promising you will follow the rules and not continue breaking the rules. Under those circumstances, we will consider unbanning someone.
No one should consider this unreasonable.
The alternative is no forgiveness ever.
You can disingenuously characterize this as "Begging can save you from banning" but you know that is not remotely the same thing.
We've never rescinded a ban because someone begged (and once or twice someone has tried).
Also worth noting that as far as I can recall, no one has ever actually petitioned us to be unbanned other than the ones who pleaded for leniency as soon as it happened (and then flew into a rage when we said no). Quite a few people have complained that their banning was unwarranted, and a few times someone else has petitioned on behalf of a banned member, but this scenario in which someone genuinely asks us for amnesty (whether you call it "begging" or not) is to date entirely hypothetical.
Is it clearly stated anywhere that you can appeal and when?
Why you use "permaban" name?
It is a permaban... for anyone who "takes their ban like a man", to paraphrase slightly. But apparently if someone comes back hat-in-hand begging for forgiveness and promises to be a good boy, it's not necessarily a permaban. So it's part of a dominance game.
I dismantled this claim before but you're going to keep repeating it, I guess. And I will keep pointing it out every time you insist on being dishonest.
You understand what words mean.
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No, it is not. It's not a formal rule. And no, we're not going to rewrite and rename things just to satisfy autists.
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Concur with Nybbler in that it shouldn't be called "permaban", then. Call it indefinite ban and leave the door open.
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You expressed skepticism earlier that it would inflict guilt-ridden nightmares upon the executioners - but supposing it provably did, would your stance change? Or what if your death is to be witnessed by the public? If you think you're being unjustly put to death, it stands to reason you dislike the regime doing this to you, and want to use what little agency you have left to raise the odds that it'll be toppled or reformed. This is to say, it stands to reason that you want to make yourself a martyr. All else being equal, making as much of a stink as possible when they drag you to the gallows increases the odds of your death having consequences for your killers, whether it makes them second-guess themselves or drives public opinion against them.
Notably, this needn't take the form of whining and blubbering; you could also try and make an impression on the basis of fighting spirit, struggling and cursing your murderers until your last breath, to try and inspire others to show the same rebellious courage - even if you have ~0 odds of actually freeing yourself or injuring your captors. Much manlier, but also very different from "facing death with dignity".
I guess it depends on what kind of role you have the look of. e.g. if you're a nebbish-looking student protestor, or a woman, you'll probably make a more memorable martyr if the cameras capture you as a weeping victim slaughtered by merciless monsters. If you're a big strong guy, going out as a fiery revolutionary might be inspirational and make you look the bigger man, while a sobbing breakdown, rightly or wrongly, might indeed look pathetic.
(To be clear, none of this is about Hlynka's behavior, I'm just curious about the meta-argument.)
Well, now we're deep into hypotheticals having nothing to do with the original example.
If I knew that undignified groveling and blubbering would make my killers feel bad, but not save my life, would I do it? I like to think not. If it would serve some instrumental purpose - like making a martyr of myself that would stir public pity such as to prevent future killings? Assuming I was capable of making such a rational and strategic decision in such a moment, maybe?
Fighting them and cursing them seems much more dignified than begging and crying. At least I wouldn't die ashamed.
and I would do
I would prefer to be able to take actions earlier (when they would be more effective) but in such situation I expect that my priority would be to cause whatever damage I can do, even if i would be only a minor annoyance to them
+1, though not on shame reasoning but because I guess it would be a bit more effective
(hopefully I will not have reason to apply it in practice - but I will not reduce my opinion about someone being unjustly executed and begging/crying/etc, though I would harshly disapprove of offering to turn traitor at last moment)
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On what grounds? Your idea of 'manlyness'? You're generally liberal, but the sex stuff is your achilles heel.
Right, but I don't think Hlynka thinks he's been justly punished for his actions. Personally I don't consider most of the permabans the mods hand out justified.
That's a general problem with the old liberalism. Men are still supposed to act traditionally, but then accept worse results for it. A man who stands up for his rights in court will just get slapped down and get a tougher sentence than one who pleads guilty and begs for leniency, and liberals applaud this -- but still despise the latter man.
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I don't even know what you mean by "sex stuff" here. I despise cowardice, weakness, and lack of dignity and self-respect.
Actually, he was pretty straightforward about his disagreement with Zorba and acknowledging that this disagreement necessarily led to his being removed as mod and then banned. We had many conversations with him: I don't know that he necessarily agreed that he was "justly punished" (obviously he wanted to keep doing what he was doing and he did not want us to make him stop) but he knew what he was doing and at the time seemed to accept the consequences.
This does not surprise me.
I think you know what I mean – there’s a tension between liberal egalitarianism which you generally support, and your traditional view of manhood as special protectors and providers, paying for everyting before going to the gallows with a smile. You foist plenty of duties on men you would never foist on women. They’re not even allowed to make a fuss on their last moments on earth when they’re wrongfully executed. By contrast you indulge women their tears in every situation, and tend to view them as innocent victims, like your idol feminist JK rowling (I’m not talking about the "anti-trans" stuff, which is fine and compatible with liberalism).
I am greatly amused. You talk like you know who I am, yet very little is recognizable. ("My feminist idol"? My gosh.)
I didn't mean to suggest anything untoward in your steadfast support for this writer of beloved children's books. I tried and failed to think of a softer alternative to the word 'idol'. Your 'pal', jk rowling?
The only support I remember was complaining when people blatantly lie about her stance on trans stuff. Like at https://www.themotte.org/post/930/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/200394?context=8#context
Why you think it is accurate at all? Have you mistaken @Amadan with someone else?
I don’t know what the big deal is, if you repeatedly defend Tucker Carlson against his critics, I will call him your idol and your pal. Plus he praised the literary value of jk rowling’s books, that’s a level of personal dedication maybe five adults on the planet can muster.
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