site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31804 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 2, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Bottom New Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

There are a lot of models among nearby countries, but populist right with a spark of social democratic welfare policies seems to work well in ex-Eastern Bloc democracies. If Ukraine joins the EU, I see them as bolstering the Vysehrad Tendency: in favour of the EU, but also strong on sovereignty issues, especially regarding borders.

That seems more likely than the National Liberalism of the Baltic States: fierce patriotism + liberalism. Some of the most fanatically anti-Russian and anti-communist people I know are very woke Balts, with militantly centrist liberal views on economic issues. Some of them are currently volunteering in Ukraine. Even though this is arguably the more natural way to reconcile the parts of Ukrainian nationalism that you mention.

I see them as bolstering the Vysehrad Tendency: in favour of the EU, but also strong on sovereignty issues, especially regarding borders

I strongly doubt this. Given how extraordinarily they will be indebted to the US and EU at the end of the war, I don’t think Ukraine will be at any position to have a political spine against the EU institutions. Something like Romania is much more likely. Very corrupt country going totally under the radar in the EU institutions since they vote with German line on every issue.

But of course no EU entrant country, not even Bulgaria, was as demographically, politically, economically fucked up as Ukraine. It’s also quite a large and populous country in comparison so I have doubts if the EU can spare funds necessary for its development even if they wanted. So this whole saga might also develop into a strange farce by time.

The EU line is not set in stone but is affected by what the political lines of the member states are. For a long time now smarter right-wingers and nationalists within EU have aimed at taking over EU instead of demolishing it, and if EU would eventually be joined by a strongly nationalist Ukraine (and it's quite likely strongly nationalist parties will be considerably stronger in Ukraine after this conflict, unless it gets totally defeated), it might very well bolster the efforts of such a tendency to make their line the mainstream line.

For a long time now smarter right-wingers and nationalists within EU have aimed at taking over EU instead of demolishing it

Who are these people and what have they achieved so far in your opinion?

Ukraine has also some resources, including not yet exploited gas fields.

Aren’t we supposed to be having an energy transition soon that will make not yet exploited gas fields obsolete?

If UE would continue pulling hard toward unstable sources like wind and solar that will make gas peakers (and pumped hydropower and other now theoretical grid-scale batteries) more needed, not less.

(or you can just redefine gas as green and renewable and go on if you really need this)

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think it's hard to speculate what Ukraine will be like by the time they become full EU members or if that will even be possible, considering the possibility that Russia might still hold a lot of Ukraine after a peace deal. A situation like Georgia can't be ruled out.

The Ukrainians don't seem to have a lack of spine, and the Vysehrad Group have shown how the EU is pretty toothless against an awkward squad.

and the Vysehrad Group have shown how the EU is pretty toothless against an awkward squad.

I think this was due to EU institutions designed for horse trading between a handful of Western European countries (ie France and Germany basically) being unable to cope with the amount of veto power each member has when the number of members is almost 30. Currently that’s being fixed with Poland and Hungary acting as the comic book villains against whom we should empower our sensible heroic Eurocrat overlords. If Ukraine ever enters the EU (probably as part of a larger expansion including countries like Moldova, Serbia etc) this will imo be part of a larger deal to seriously empower the Center against member states. Or maybe this doesn’t happen at all and newly anointed eu members Ukraine and Georgia just become another set of US satellites in Brussels. Who knows

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats