site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31777 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 2, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

To be young and smart and white and male

"Smart" is doing all the heavy lifting there. Holding intelligence constant, white and male is probably the second worst demographic combination you can roll, after Asian and male, but the differences aren't that big, and being smart and born in a rich country is playing life on easy mode for any race/sex combination.

I dunno, I think men tend to have it easier than women. Mostly due to physical strength and social dynamics. I’d pick male social drama any day, and the less said about harassment the better.

Maybe discrimination is most socially acceptable against white and Asian men. I don’t feel like that actually has much impact on how much discrimination really happens. I’m not really competing against women for my job or for marriage.

It's not really about what we personally think. Statistically it's very clear that being a woman is better than being a man in the west. Especially when controlling for intelligence.

Really depends on what you mean by "better". Women get preferential treatment in hiring but still manage to undernegotiate their salaries and also have to face the undesirable decision of having kids or making money.

In a middle class western environment i'd way rather be a guy, but maybe thats just my solipsistic mind worms poking out of my eye holes again.

Despite undernegotiating their salaries, in an apples to apples comparison women make more than men on top of everything else in multiple professions. Moreover, men don't get to decide to have kids and have money. If you have children, as a man, you are either married, and will be paying for everything, or you are going to be paying alimony.

Again, this isn't about what we personally think. In a statistical comparison women have it better than men in the west. Inserting our personal biases, wills and wants into the equation is pointless obfuscation.

Theres no way to apples to apples compare being a man biologically and all the natural advantages we have versus the sociological advantages women have, unless i'm missing something.

The term 'apples to apples' here refers to job market comparisons. To reiterate: In multiple white collar professions women make more money than similarly experienced and educated men. The education and experience is the apple being compared. If being a woman was worse you would not see this.

ok, so because in some professions women get payed more, its "better" to be a woman overall than a man? i disagree and unless we nail down a definition of "better" that doesn't include physical fitness or pregnancy i don't see why an advantage in such a slim facet of life makes you think differently than i do.

No man. Maybe you have lost the thread of the conversation because it's been a day or two but the point being made was that statistically it was better to be a woman. There was no ambiguity in my replies to you about what 'better' meant.

I then made a point specifically addressing what you are doing now and have been doing, where you say that you feel that being a man is better without any qualifiers or definitions. The only argument here subsisting on a lack of definitions is yours.

Again, this isn't about what we personally think. In a statistical comparison women have it better than men in the west. Inserting our personal biases, wills and wants into the equation is pointless obfuscation.

More comments

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats