site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

14
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Thanks for the interesting and high quality post.

The war will only end when enough Russian soldiers have been killed that it becomes politically or militarily impossible for the Russian regime to continue the war. Thus, killing Russian soldiers is a good thing, and the Ukrainians should be helped in killing them.

If the war continues, the bad things will inevitably continue. The bad things will stop when the war stops, and since Russia cannot be convinced with words, the only way to stop the war is to kill Russians.

If killing Russian soldiers in this situation is right and necessary, then anything that contributes to their killing is also right and necessary.

Well, if it's so simple, why not have another crack at Leningrad? Why not send whole brigades, kit and all, to fight in Ukraine? That would kill a lot of Russian soldiers. The real answer is that he knows perfectly well Finland would suffer severely if they attacked Russia. Clearly killing Russians is not the solution to everything.

The previous guy in that role got kicked out of the job for being insufficiently careful in his wording, apparently suggesting that Ukraine wasn't going to join NATO. I thought that was the official story, that Russia invading Ukraine was bad in part because Ukraine certainly wasn't going to join NATO anyway, at least in the short term. I suppose the lesson people learnt from that is that one should err on the side of being anti-Russian for political gain, regardless of how this might impair diplomacy. How exactly do we plan to negotiate with people we've spent our time decrying as subhuman? Might former Axis allies calling Russians subhuman not be counterproductive, providing grist for their propaganda mills?

Well, if it's so simple, why not have another crack at Leningrad? Why not send whole brigades, kit and all, to fight in Ukraine?

Most European countries are rich and cowardly and currently at low risk, to the first approximation. And Ukraine's limits are equipment, not soldiers anyway.

So sending equipment is relatively cheap, enough for Ukrainians and enough to harm Russian imperialism long term.

Europe will send F16 and 400 modern MBT before sending soldiers.

Well, if it's so simple, why not have another crack at Leningrad? Why not send whole brigades, kit and all, to fight in Ukraine? That would kill a lot of Russian soldiers. The real answer is that he knows perfectly well Finland would suffer severely if they attacked Russia. Clearly killing Russians is not the solution to everything.

One facet of this whole affair I considered mentioning (but didn't, partly since it meant I managed to keep it within 10 000 words and didn't have to split posts) was that a few days ago Anton Monti, a Finnish-Italian writer who used to be a fairly notable figure in Finnish radical left (autonomist communist) circles in the early 2000s, made some bizarre tweets where, in addition to a strange attack on Estonians as "beneficiaries of Soviet Union", he said that Finland should - instead of sending tanks to Ukraine, which has been under discussion - "send tanks to Russia", ie. take back the areas lost in 1940/1944. Monti has gone through some ideological twists and turns, but taking a brazen irredentist nationalist position like this led to a fair amount of hooting and hollering, including accusations that this, too, was some sort of a Putinist plot (some magazines have suggested that Russians are trying to stoke take-back-Karelia discourses in Finland to create a potential casus belli). Oh, and he happens to be the partner of the deputy mayor of Helsinki, too...

Might former Axis allies calling Russians subhuman not be counterproductive, providing grist for their propaganda mills?

This is indeed a frequently-made point about the most belligerent statements by public figures, like Monti's. "We can't allow fear of Russia make us engage in self-censorship like during the Cold War" and "It doesn't matter whether we hold our tongues or not, Russian propaganda is going to twist whatever statements we make to their liking anyway" are generally some of the replies.