site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

14
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

More importantly they are superficial, morally subhuman.

But didn't you fall for the same dynamics? "Subhuman" is not much better than an "orc". And the reasoning of many people who call Z-Russians "orcs" is the same as yours — they [Z-Russians] lack empathy and dehumanize Ukrainians. Of course, there are unironic Nazis who consider Russians "subhumans" quite literally — but they are clearly in minority.

It's difficult not to feel rage at people who cry about a monument to Catherine II being removed (we even had several people like that here) or Tchaikovsky being "cancelled" while being completely silent on dozens of civilians dying every day due to Russian artillery or missile strikes.

What should be the attitude of Ukrainians faced with the prospect of "svinorez"?

It's difficult not to feel rage at people who cry about a monument to Catherine II being removed (we even had several people like that here) or Tchaikovsky being "cancelled" while being completely silent on dozens of civilians dying every day due to Russian artillery or missile strikes.

Since this was very obviously directed at me and pretty much only me, I assume, I feel compelled to mention that I, indeed, never commented on Russian missile and artillery strikes. But if your point is to insinuate that I somehow rejoice in the slaughter khokhols, then I need to point out that, technically speaking, I also stayed "completely silent" on the civilian victims of the Azov/Kraken/Tornado/etc. units and the SBU, of the shelling of the Donbass, of the starvation blockade of Yemen and Tigray, of the drone strikes in Pakistan, and the list could go on.

Is that supposed to imply political positions?

I also stayed "completely silent" on the civilian victims of the Azov/Kraken/Tornado/etc. units and the SBU, of the shelling of the Donbass

That's another example of the phenomenon I mentioned. You can easily substitute

It's difficult not to feel rage at people who cry about a monument to Catherine II being removed (we even had several people like that here) or Tchaikovsky being "cancelled" while being completely silent on dozens of civilians dying every day due to Russian artillery or missile strikes.

with

It's difficult not to feel rage at people who cry about maybe 1000-2000 civilians whose direct cause of death was Ukrainian shelling, mines, maybe even some executions by extremists (most of those wouldn't have happened decide Russia not to intervene in 2014 and 2022) while being completely silent on potentially more than 100 000 people who died because of Russian imperial ambitions

And the reasoning of many people who call Z-Russians "orcs" is the same as yours

The reasoning behind calling Russian soldiers orcs is actually pretty apt as far as analogies go, since the orcs of the Lord of the Rings were based (in individual character and personality) on some of the enlisted he interacted with during his service in WW1 and (on a larger, more general scale) the armies of eastern despots. Admittedly the eastern despots he was being inspired by were far more likely to be called Darius than Vladimir, but it's still a surprisingly apt comparison.

I think "orcs" is better. While orcs are depicted as corrupt subhumans, the main characteristic of orcs is that they are a hostile military led by a conqueror and you have to defeat them to end the war, something that's pretty much true here.

This isn't true: for defeating Mordor and ending the war it was apparently sufficient to throw a certain ring into a certain volcano, and no normal military triumph would have been as effective.

Essentially an assassination attempt on their leader. Hmmm...

But didn't you fall for the same dynamics?

Not completely. I address this irony specifically in the first paragraph, and claim advantage on the account of you missing it. Subhumanity is a moral choice; it is proper to acknowledge this ancestral impulse and suppress it. Sadly, civilians think themselves above this burden just as they are free from burdens of the frontline. This is one of the worst parts of the war, personally. It really makes me despise civilians of all sides.

What should be the attitude of Ukrainians faced with the prospect of "svinorez"?

War, prosecuted as effectively as possible. To the point of terrorism, disinformation, and recognizing philosophers as valid targets. If it works.

Regarding truly civilian matters, I concur with Sgt. Makhno.

Regarding truly civilian matters, I concur with Sgt. Makhno.

As do I. But I think people like Farion are closer to "Nazis" whom I've mentioned — they consider Russians "orcs" not because of what they do, but for who they are. The same as people who call Russians "moksha", "mongols" or whatever. And that's ironic — someone like Alexei Milchakov is quite attractive, probably has IQ above average — not an ugly "mongol" like some propaganda depicts Russians, or an alcoholic from paintings by Lozhkin. Yet it's for people like him, I think, the title "orc" is the most deserving.

Interesting tidbit about Farion — she is being "cancelled" for hitting her cat during one of her streams. I believe the same as some twitch streamer :-)