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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31233 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023

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In particular putting national pride above the lives of it's sailors seems like quite a tragedy for the families of those lost.

Question: do you think Ukraine should surrender to Russian demands immediately, or do you think that it should continue to lose its men at the front and lose its women (and therefore its next generation) to permanent refugee-vacation in glamorous Western Europe?

Because for one of those cases, you have no cause to be finger-wagging anyone else at placing national pride above human lives.

I think sacrificing lives to defend a country's sovereignity against an invader is generally more excusable than sacrificing lives to a technical accident by not accepting aid. I'm sure the same Ukrainians that are the sacrifices in the former case would generally be more eager to sacrifice themselves in the former case than in the latter.

Indeed, I've heard quite a few opinions to the effect of "I will sacrifice my life if I have to, to defend my country/my family/my culture/kill those fuckers". I've heard "I will sacrifice my life if it means my country doesn't have to show weakness" far less often.

I think sacrificing lives to defend a country's sovereignity against an invader is generally more excusable than sacrificing lives to a technical accident by not accepting aid

Why?

National sovereignty is just national pride writ large.

What? No. Sovereignity is specifically about the control you have over the territory. Pride is more about keeping face.

And you would want your country to be hegemon over some clay because...?

Because (and when) I can be sure that the current government will treat me better than the other guys.

The other guys marching in with tanks and artillery seems to make people less assured that they'd be better than the current government.

Because (and when) I can be sure that the current government will treat me better than the other guys.

This sounds like remarkably similar logic to Russians wanting to rescue their own submariners than having other countries do it for them.

No, I don't think the logic of the commanders there was "we want to do it ourselves because the foreigners will bungle it and lose our boys to the sea". It looks more like "we want to do it ourselves because if we accept aid then we'll lose face".

Not to mention, of course, that the Russian command did bungle it.

No, I don't think the logic of the commanders there was "we want to do it ourselves because the foreigners will bungle it and lose our boys to the sea".

And I don't think the logic of Ukrainian men at the front line is "We defend our land with all our hearts!", either; I think it's more likely to do with the law that makes it illegal for them to leave, and the probabiloty of getting tarred and feathered across global media for 'cowardice' by their Americo-Euromaidan regime commissars. That's the thing about making "WELL I THINK THAT" assertions: the interlocutor can just-so right back at you.

Not to mention, of course, that the Russian command did bungle it.

Yeah, but they didn't know they'd bungle it when they started. Hindsight is 20:20.

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