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Okay, if merging multiple groups isn't overinclusion then let's just define ourselves to be part of a shared ethnic group containing everyone except the North Sentinelese islanders.
You asked me for what I would put in a creed. I interpreted a "creed" as being a legally and culturally enforced set of beliefs. I would like to enforce a belief in basic property rights.
Converting the muslims by proximity and getting more people into heaven.
I think you're getting confused on my expected timeline. I think it would look something like this:
...or basically, what happened to the roman empire. We've done it before and we can do it again.
If it lost then it must not have been so beneficial after all.
This is a major turn-off, man.
I'm not asking you all these questions to score an "own", or deboonk the idea of credal nations. Actually I like that idea a lot, I even prefer it to ethnonationalism, I just think it needs to address a few issues in order to be sustainable (I mostly agree with Southkraut on this). When center-to-leftwing people started using the term, there's a part of me that was skeptical, and a part of me that was curious. The curious part wondered if the left identified the same issues, and if they came up with the same solutions, or different ones, and is there anything I can learn from that. Hence, our conversation. But when you hit me with these redditisms I think I was right to be skeptical, and to think that the left only settled on the term cynically, because it sounds nice in opposition to ethnic identities, but it's something they haven't put a lot of thought into at all.
If you want a serious answer to this, it's: yeah, you can, if it makes sense. If we ever suffer an alien invasion something like this probably will happen. If the North Sentinelese side with the aliens something exactly like this might happen. But tell me, would handing out passports and giving full unconditional citizenship to every Chinese or Russian make a lot of sense to you in the current geopolitical situation?
That's the approach Europe took, and it now has significant portions of the population with absolutely no loyalty to the countries they're living in. Even the US, which has long been gloating about how effectively it assimilates immigrants, is starting to struggle in that area (because they were only effective at it back when they were a lot more forceful about assimilation, than just enforcing basic property rights?).
How many Muslims that moved to Europe converted to Christianity, vs. how many Christian Europeans lost their faith within the same timeline?
No, I'm not. I was asking how is it a "creedal nation" if you're not enforcing a creed. You hint that you want to, you bring up "enforcement [of Catholicism]" again, but when I asked you about it before you started talking about property rights.
No, this is another part of why I wanted to have this conversation. In theory America could be described as a creedal nation, with the principles of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence being the creed. The issue is that not only is the creed not enforced, being active hostility to it is allowed, and often encouraged. Some of the worst transgressors are presidents, supreme court judges, and congressmen.
There is absolutely no way that in practice America today is a creedal nation.
Is the Edict of Thessalonica happening somewhere on this timeline?
I think that's a very naive view. Is communism more beneficial in North Korea and Cuba, than other economic systems?
Europe ceased to be Christian in traditional sense long before modern Muslim immigration began.
The question you need to ask is: how many Muslims assimilated into modern Western godless materialist life, vs how many Muslims reacted to living in unbeliever land by becoming more strict and fundamentalist?
(native European conversion to Islam is, so far, demographically insignificant. Michel Houellebecq utopia is far away.)
The creed is very much enforced and resistance was not tolerated until very recently. See that even as recent refugee from war zone, you have no choice than to actively affirm the creed to be accepted by society.
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If you're going to ask me about implementation details given current political realities, I admit that I would have to moderate my position. I would still be happy to give citizenship to every chinaman and russian-- but only after they spent time living in america, working, without access to welfare, subject to assimilation and naturalization. While still holding onto the highest principles I laid out-- the bailey, if you will, I'll concede that an illiquid political/economic situation required adjustments to reality, and a retreat to the motte. For example, I'll concede that
is a good point. We're insufficiently forceful about assimilation, and that makes it hard to be a credal nation. Opening the borders and becoming a fully credal without toughening up would probably be a disaster. But why would we consider a policy in isolation without considering every other self-consistent supporting policy? If we're assuming a massive, unlikely change, we don't need to limit that change to a single axis. If we're considering strictly limited interventions imaginable within the current system, again, those interventions can include compromise policies. My maximalist vision is "assimilationist credal nation." But it's not an all-or-nothing policy. I would still be happy to let in modestly more muslims, paired with child-protection-service and educational mandates designed to make it harder for them to isolate their female children and force them into wearing burkas. I would still let in more poor hispanic immigrants, paired with a reduction in the taxpayer-funded subsidies for the noncitizen poor.
I don't understand this point. I consider a respect for property rights part of a specific creed. I consider education and police work as valid methods of enforcement for property rights. Therefore, I'm presenting them as a method of enforcing the creed.
Are you looking for a complete creed and list of enforcement mechanisms? If so, I'll concede that I haven't thought that deeply about it. But as a summary, I'd say, "I'm imperfect, so I'll just go with whatever the pope wants." (See also: Edict of Thessalonica)
North Korea and Cuba are both continuously reforming themselves to be less communistic (though understandably they're not very open about it.) See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jangmadang . And each of their individual citizens probably have (close to) the most beneficial ideas to hold for maximizing their performance within the systems they find themselves in.
It's not a perfectly creedal nation, but it's far more creedal than the vast majority of the nations on the planet, and I would like it to be yet more creedal still.
Yes, you need to think deeply about it. Who is the Pope (or Council, if you happen to be Conciliarist) who gets to decide what the Creed is?
When the Creed changes, what should happen to Americans who do not get along fast enough, and to Americans who actively reject it?
The... the actual pope. The pope who is chosen by the holy, apostolic, catholic church. The pope who is chosen through the direct guidance of infallible God.
Whatever the pope says. Probably some mix of compassionate incentives and stern-but-fair punishments ranging from financial inducements to banishment or life imprisonment (but strictly excluding execution.)
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