This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I am personally of the view that celebrating someone's death is bad, even if the person was an asshole, because exercising sadism is bad for you. I understand why people aren't tearing their clothes and gnashing their teeth. I likewise understand (and basically agree with) why they push back on efforts to lionize Kirk. However, even with all that, to actively celebrate it is too much. Most of us have negative or inappropriate thoughts, but you should aim to tame them, not cultivate them. There are instances where I might cut you some slack (e.g. NYers cheering OBL's death), but it is not wholesome.
What sticks in my craw about pearl-clutching from conservatives over less-than-decorous reactions to Kirk's death is how one-sided it is. Trumpism is a movement literally founded on turfing out respectable conservatives in favor of tribal nastiness. A significant part of Trump's initial appeal was that he was a loud and proud asshole who didn't care about decorum, and that has carried forward through his entire movement. The aesthetic of cruelty, a gleeful willingness to offend ("facts don't care about your feelings") has been a central element post-Trump conservatism*. The reason you're not supposed to celebrate Kirk's death isn't a generalized principle of decency or respect for the dead. It's because Charlie Kirk is a Good Guy and you're not supposed to make fun of Good Guys. It's totally cool to celebrate death and misery as long the subject deserves it.
*It was always present (e.g. Rush Limbaugh), but under Trump it came to the forefront.
I'm not a conservative and I'm not clutching my pearls. I am horrified and disgusted because "less-than-decorous" is an understatement. I do not recall seeing this kind of reaction on this scale, ever. I don't disagree that MAGAs have cultivated an anti-empathy, pro-cruelty attitude towards their enemies, but I haven't seen a major outbreak of tribal celebration over an ideological opponent being murdered in cold blood like this in my lifetime.
I'm old enough to remember when John Hinckley shot Ronald Reagan, and there was conservative pearl-clutching over reports of cheering at a few schools. Those were isolated incidents. This is different. I fortunately do not have any personal friends or family members who are literally celebrating, but they are posting lots of "reminders" about how horrible and harmful Charlie Kirk was. It's impossible not to read the subtext that they think he kind of deserved it even if they don't approve of murder on principle.
I see conservatives seeing this and realizing that even normie liberals think they kind of deserve to die, or at least if they did die, you shouldn't feel sorry for them. That's you, taking that position.
I don't doubt if someone shoots Rachel Maddow or Hassan Piker or whoever the fuck is the leftie counterpart to Charlie Kirk now, rightists will go into full grave-dancing mode, because that's the new norm.
Thanks a lot.
I've also been fortunate that the people I've spoken with in person have been horrified by what happened. But my friends are generally conservatives or moderates. My mother, who really liked Kirk and occasionally tried to show me some of his videos, cried. The moderates are in shock and are terrified we've created a culture of violence.
I know a few people who are progressives of some description, but overwhelmingly they're straight-laced people who abhor violence. I'm sure there are some people I've been friends with at some point in my life who are being terrible right now (I can think of names), but outside of work I don't know any hardcore progressives right now. And people at work haven't brought it up.
What has scared me is that I've had the usual suspects be the usual suspects. Because of my location and profession that is a lot, but it isn't new.
I've also heard a bunch of people I've never seen make political statements come out "in support of the murder of Charlie Kirk" (sometimes loosely, sometimes literally that).
It's not the just the right being radicalized by this, some of the left is doubling down or moving more extreme.
That is....not good.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Pretty much sums up my own position.
I’m certainly not going to cheer over Kirk’s death, and it’s not exactly ideal to see people cross the line from ‘ambivalence’ to outright ‘saying Kirk deserved it’…
But at the same time, I understand a lot of the frustration currently gnawing at my fellow disgruntled left-wingers. None of us are under the impression that if the situation had been reversed, and some left-wing influencer had been killed, that there would be tears shed by MAGA conservatives over it, nor any conciliatory hagiographies published by center-right publications.
Trump-era conservatism is loudly and proudly founded on naked tribalism and an explicit “fuck you” to the left, so the right demanding contrition from the left while simultaneously talking about how we need to be punished, rooted out, and generally crushed is pretty rich.
More options
Context Copy link
I should clarify that I meant that by "it is perfectly wholesome" I meant that in the context of the film it is treated as perfectly wholesome, and that no one questions this when talking about The Wizard of Oz. I didn't mean that I thought celebrating someone's death in real life was "perfectly wholesome". As I started by stating, I personally disapprove of it, just as you do. My point is that it is commonplace and benign - that it is in the vast majority of cases disconnected from any genuine desire to encourage vigilante killings - with the uncontroversial Wizard of Oz scene being an example of this sentiment and its broad harmlessness.
But yes, unrelatedly, absolutely agreed with your second paragraph.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link