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PaperclipPerfector  4d ago (text post)   16218 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 17, 2025

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Trump is calling for the arrest and trial of six Democrat lawmakers who posted a video telling the intelligence community not to follow unlawful orders,. The video claims that the current administration is threatening democracy and the constitution, and that the military "must refuse illegal orders."

Trump also apparently had another post that just said, "SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR, punishable by DEATH."

This is the first time I have genuinely increased the probability of a real civil war breaking out, this is an absolutely terrifying escalation by both sides. While the Democrats were hinting extremely obviously that the military / intelligence community should basically pull off a coup, I also think that Trump hinting back that they should be executed is way beyond the pale.

Hopefully we're still in nothing ever happens land? I for one do not want to live through a civil war.

I'm just gonna post a transcript here because the reaction to this seems insane to me.

[Video opens with the six congresspeople (Elisa Slotkin, Mark Kelly, Chris Deluzio, Maggie Goodlander, Chrissy Houlahan, Jason Crow) identifying themselves and giving their military/intelligence backgrounds] We want to speak directly to members of the military and the intelligence community. Who take risks each day to keep Americans safe. We know you are under enormous stress and pressure right now. Americans trust their military. But that trust is at risk. This administration is pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens. Like us, you all swore an oath to protect and defend this constitution. Right now, the threats to our constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders [Kelly]. You can refuse illegal orders [Slotkin]. You must refuse illegal orders [Deluzio]. No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our constitution. We know this is hard and that it's a difficult time to be a public servant. But whether you're serving in the CIA, the Army, our Navy, the Air Force, your vigilance is critical. And know that we have your back. Because now, more than ever, the American people need you. We need you to stand up for our laws, our constitution, and who we are as Americans. Don't give up [Kelly]. Don't give up [Deluzio]. Don't give up [Crow]. Don't give up the ship [Slotkin].

Characterizing the speech above as a call for a coup or sedition seems crazy. Like, courts have held that some of the orders Trump has given the military on American soil are unlawful! That is literally a thing that is happening! Trump is, as literally as possible, giving the military illegal orders as determined by a court of law. This is not even getting into the boat strikes that I think are straightforwardly murder. "If the president tells you to do something illegal, as he has already done, you must not do it." "THIS IS TREASON!"

All of this is happening in the context of a serious battle for authority on a grand scale. Whether the troops should (that's a moral should, not a legal should) be listening to their elected president Donald Trump or U.S. District Judge Jia Cobb is precisely the issue in question. To a big chunk of the country, the legal wing of the government has vastly overstepped its remit and is engaged in constant tendentious legal warfare to undermine the elected leader of the country. They are misusing the authority that they have been given and have no moral right to use the tools that they are attempting to wield.

If you see the world in that way, what is this video saying? Firstly, this video wouldn't be made if the makers didn't think that Trump was giving illegal orders, or was about to do so. So they're not just speaking about a hypothetical, they're standing up and saying, "Either the orders you're being given now, or the orders you're going to get soon, are illegal and you should ignore them". They are not only attacking the president and by extension those who voted for him, they are deliberately attempting to usurp his power of command.

So it's more like,

"Don't listen to the president, listen to me instead." "THIS IS TREASON".

which, yes, it is.

Obviously, this depends on a particular interpretation of events and of the role of law which you don't hold, but that's the reasoning IMO.

EDIT: Not to mention that of course

We need you to stand up for our laws, our constitution, and who we are as Americans.

is going to raise the temperature considerably because it firmly casts Trump's voters and those who approve of his actions as being criminal, unconstitutional and unAmerican. Which is the problem that #Resist has had from the start, because this is a very dangerous place to be if you don't in fact hold majority support. It's more or less how the Right lost control twenty years ago - by framing anyone who wasn't in favour of Christian social teachings and maximally liberal economics as being unAmerican, they made a generation of voters and politicians who didn't care at all about being American on those terms.

All of this is happening in the context of a serious battle for authority on a grand scale. Whether the troops should (that's a moral should, not a legal should) be listening to their elected president Donald Trump or U.S. District Judge Jia Cobb is precisely the issue in question.

To ask this question is to answer it: Jia Cobb, until some court above her says otherwise. The President is not above and superior to the judiciary. You want to know why people say Trump wants to be king? Shit like this. Apparently Donald J. Trump is to be the sole arbiter of what the law is and what is legal and illegal and no one may gainsay him!

If you see the world in that way, what is this video saying? Firstly, this video wouldn't be made if the makers didn't think that Trump was giving illegal orders, or was about to do so. So they're not just speaking about a hypothetical, they're standing up and saying, "Either the orders you're being given now, or the orders you're going to get soon, are illegal and you should ignore them". They are not only attacking the president and by extension those who voted for him, they are deliberately attempting to usurp his power of command.

The constitution does not give the President, or any official, the power to give orders contrary to itself or to law. To the extent the President's orders are unlawful, he has no authority to give them.

The constitution does not give the President, or any official, the power to give orders contrary to itself or to law. To the extent the President's orders are unlawful, he has no authority to give them.

You are being overly literal to hide what's being said.

Suddenly announcing that illegal orders from the President shouldn't be followed may literally be a hypothetical claiming that to the extent the orders are unlawful they don't need to be followed. But what it actually means is "the President is giving out illegal orders now and they should be disobeyed now," even if the speech doesn't literally include the word "now".

Suddenly announcing that illegal orders from the President shouldn't be followed may literally be a hypothetical claiming that to the extent the orders are unlawful they don't need to be followed. But what it actually means is "the President is giving out illegal orders now and they should be disobeyed now," even if the speech doesn't literally include the word "now".

The quoted section is just a factual description of what is occurring, according to the branch of government charged with making that kind of determination.

Gillitrut has not tried to claim that the video was hypothetical, but rather, pointed out that a judge has in fact ruled some of Trump's orders illegal. Therefore the Democrats in the video are not casting baseless aspersions, explicitly or otherwise, but reacting to already-established legal fact.

That's a big part of the problem, though, right? It's not a legal fact, it's a legal assertion. When the Pope speaks ex cathedra then by the rules of the Catholic church (AFAIK) what he says is true for all time, but that doesn't make it a fact. And indeed, many will completely ignore it because they don't think the Pope is valid (schismatics) or they don't care what Catholic rules say (all non-Catholics).

EDIT:

It's not a legal fact, it's a legal assertion.

For the avoidance of doubt, what I mean is that it's not an actual literal fact like 'the boiling point of water is 100C'. Instead it's an assertion that under the rules of the legal system is treated like a fact, but that doesn't make it literally so.

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