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Notes -
What happens when Groypers start attending your church?
I've seen (in real life even!) blue-tribe immersed evangelical leaders bemoan the lack of religious interest in the side of America they see. Our churches have largely pandered to the "wider culture" (typically center-left leaning) without realizing that there is a burgeoning counter-culture that signals great interest in traditional religion. When they do realize there is such a counter-culture, they condemn it.
The most recent example is the the much-ballyhooed Fuentes-Carlson interview. The David Frenchs of the world signaled their great distaste. The very-online dissident right was mostly pleased. As I have never heard Fuentes speak before, I decided to listen to the entire interview. What surprised me most was how much both Carlson and Fuentes talked about Christianity. I had not known Fuentes claimed to be religious. (As an aside, the interview did nothing to convince me that Fuentes holds any deep convictions, much less genuine Christian faith). (As another aside, it turns out I am more "extreme" in my religious views than Fuentes: conditioned on him being religious I would have expected him to be to my right [insert "that awkward moment" meme]). If Fuentes continues to treat Christianity as a key part of his identity, his followers will start showing interest in the Church.
I'm not the only one who has noticed. There are other (near-dissident) leaders in the evangelical world who are looking to engage with the wayward, but seeking, young right. The pastor Michael Clary has written several posts either arguing for reaching the right or directly appealing to the dissident right. While less than eloquent (and with some boomer-like mannerisms), Mark Marshall explicitly recommends engaging with Groypers. Even conservative stalwart Kevin DeYoung has started to use language that appeals to the dissident right without outright condemning it (though he has engaged with dissident right ideas in the past).
But, by and large, our churches have been conditioned to be "salt and light" to a left-leaning world. We know how to deal with a blue-haired lesbian. Even conservative/orthodox churches can show the love of Christ to the wayward left. Be winsome, win them for Christ, and let sanctification come later (if it happens at all!). But our churches are not at all prepared for a young, irreverent to cultural norms, Christian Nationalist man who is interested in tradition and yearning for something more meaningful than a Ted-talk and a rock-concert on a Sunday.
And come they will, especially if the church is little-o orthodox, especially if it is traditional, and especially if proscribes female leadership. We shall soon see how tolerant our churches actually are. We are told we must show love to the sinners to our left. Let us see whether we show the same love to sinners on our right.
From what I can tell, the dissident right’s interest in Christianity seems entirely based on the vibes of it being “based and trad” rather than actually being interested in the teachings of Christ. What Christian values do they actual have? The movement is centred on vice signaling, aka the “based ritual”, displaying abhorrent opinions, possibly ironically, to shock and troll the libs, their few female members are highly sexualised (see their embrace of Sydney Sweeney), and they are certainly more concerned with a white identity than a Christian one.
I was going to say this as well, for the most part.
Nick is more the trendy influencer type conservative who’s great for the outrage machine of social media. I don’t follow him in particular unless he’s made a splash large enough like on Tucker that I have to watch him. But I’ve seen him in other venues before. I’ve never found him informative at all. And he has been clearly misinformed on various topics.
Take one particular example of this. When Halsey English debated Nick back when Warski Live was still a thing. Nick’s a young and good looking guy who was dressed up for the discussion. Most people watching this would’ve said Nick won. And if you asked me on the optics and performative antics of how debates go, he did. But as a person that’s read extensively and pretty deeply across various topics they touched, Halsey actually had the argument correct by a good shot.
Take Nick’s remarks about the Talmud (or Dan Bilzerian’s if you want to). He’s repeating a lot of the classic tropes and accusations about anti-Christian and anti-Jesus remarks that have been around for centuries. Not knowing some of these are outright fabrications (they don’t exist), are a collection of scandals where Rabbi’s give different views about hypothetical arguments among classroom discussions, or are often refuting various claims. The Talmud is a massive religious collection of “case law” more or less. It’s not a single unified composition of discrete writings that says shit like “you can murder gentiles.”
I personally own a complete collection of the Babylonian Talmud and Christ is it a pain in the ass to read and make sense of. But if you actually read it, it fully conforms to the explanations the Rabbi’s give. Nick either doesn’t know this or knows and is lying about it. I think the former is probably true in his case.
Nick is mostly popular IMO not because he’s some kind of scholar or intellectual heavyweight making waves. He says things that are outrageous for the times that are funny and inflammatory and progressive ideology is falling more out of favor with conservatism again becoming in vogue. He’s caught a high point in the wave of things and is riding it very effectively. The real testament to how bright or successful he is, is what he ultimately does with the victories he’s stacked and the popularity he’s accumulated.
The Talmud includes many thousands of prescriptive and proscriptive rules. It also includes other stuff. But if you’re a kosher-keeping Jew, the rules from a book like mishnah chullin are absolutely binding, though modified according to sect / kosher process. It’s not accurate to say that the Talmud is only a collection of opinions and debates. If you walk through Williamsburg or imagine Ben Shapiro’s daily life, these are the most rule-following people in the world, and all of the rules are in the Talmud and accompanying literature. And you can’t just not follow them, as that would get you ostracized and banned.
The criticism against the Talmud is as follows: among the very many authoritative rules which religious Jews follow with extreme care, are also rules that appear evil. The evil rules are not currently followed, but for what reason? Is it only because they can’t get away with it? Are they just biding their time until they can? For instance, if you read chapter 10 of Maimonides’ Avodat Kochavim in the Mishneh Torah, which is a Talmud redaction (highly authoritative and taught at most Yeshiva), you’re going to find rules about being merciless to outsiders:
Another example I've seen is the Talmud saying it's ok to rape boys under the age of 9, apologists for the Talmud claiming it was just one rabbi's opinion and not actual Jewish law, but then you look up what Maimonides had to say about it and he agrees it is actual Jewish law
Out of context. It means that a boy has to be 9 for an act of intercourse to legally count as one for other purposes. The prohibition on rape is separate and has no minimum age.
Nope, that's a different section of the Torah. Sanhedrin 54b is what you want:
במאי קמיפלגי רב סבר כל דאיתיה בשוכב איתיה" בנשכב וכל דליתיה בשוכב ליתיה בנשכב The Gemara asks: With regard to what principle do Rav and Shmuel disagree? The Gemara answers: Rav holds that any halakha that applies to one who engages in intercourse actively applies to one who engages in intercourse passively, and any halakha that does not apply to one who engages in intercourse actively does not apply to one who engages in intercourse passively. Therefore, just as one who engages in intercourse actively is not liable if he is less than nine years old, as the intercourse of such a child does not have the halakhic status of intercourse, so too, if a child who is less than nine years old engages in homosexual intercourse passively, the one who engages in intercourse with him is not liable."
And Maimonides, applying this part of the Torah many centuries later:
"Once a male has penetrated another male, if both are adults, they are stoned…
If one was a minor but at least nine years and a day old, the active or passive adult is stoned while the minor is exempt.
If the minor was exactly nine years old or less, they are both exempt. Still, it is fitting for the court to give lashes of insubordination to the adult for sleeping with a male, even though that male was less than nine." - Laws of Forbidden Relations 1:14
This is what I'm talking about, there are plenty of things in the Talmud that sound awful out of context but are unobjectionable in context (or the person referencing it is incorrectly summarizing what it actually says). But there are also several that are absolutely horrendous regardless of context.
You said that "the Torah says it's ok to rape boys under the age of 9". This reads to me like autistic legalist interpretation on precisely how the laws around equal punishment for sexual offenses and minimum age for criminal culpability interact, not an endorsement of pedophilia; it's no more sinister than an Aella poll.
Semi-relatedly, here's a funny bit from Sanhedrin 55a on the halakhaic status of putting your dick in your own ass:
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