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Yes, buddy, I know about the New Covenant. And I'm also quite familiar with Islamic jurisprudence and interpretation (and disputes) over hadiths.
The problem is, the vast majority of religious practitioners of all faiths are not theologians or lawyers. This is why some Christians actually quote those Old Testament verses when it's convenient, and then fall back on "But Jesus" when the ones they'd rather not follow are quoted back at them. I don't think Christians are particularly hypocritical or unlearned about this, relative to anyone else. But by the same token, some Muslims and Jews are aware of the bad stuff in their holy books and handwave it away, and some don't. Most Muslims don't approve of marrying 9-year-olds, most Jews don't approve of taking gentile slave girls, most Christians don't approve of stoning children to death.
There is no difference, except the artificial one you create in an attempt to gotcha Jews.
Now, you can claim that means most Muslims and Jews aren't really following their orthodox doctrines (though I don't know why we should consider a hostile outsider more qualified to interpret their scriptural fidelity). Maybe you can even make a theological argument that under the letter of their respective laws, Christians are correct to ignore their bronze age genocidal covenants while Muslims and Jews are incorrect to ignore their bronze age genocidal covenants. But that would presumably be between them and their gods. If you want to convince us that Jews don't really follow the Talmud, go argue with a rabbi. If you want to convince us that Jews are actually that evil and slimy because they secretly follow all your uncharitable Talmudic interpretations, your case is entirely scriptural nutpicking, and it's fair to ask if you've stoned any children or damned yourself with polyester lately.
Maimonides is not obscure esoterica, he is considered a top 5 important Rabbi to be consulted in Rabbinical rulings, and the passage I quoted comes from a renowned book still taught to this day, not from the Bronze Age but from the 13th century. If the Jews don’t believe it, they don’t have to teach it. The medieval Catholics made them expunge the verse on killing Christians and cursing Christ, but they reinserted it. And today it is taught in most Orthodox schools. I can find you more quotes from the Talmud regarding the ban on showing mercy to idol-worshippers (a category in which they universally and firmly place Trinitarian Christians). But I don’t think you would be able to find me a counterfactual verse in the Talmud or Mishneh or major redactions. I would be very surprised if you could find me a verse that said “be compassionate to idol-worshippers”, as I cannot find such a verse in the Talmudic literature.
There’s an interesting rabbinical controversy that will give a good idea of how important Maimonides is. Are Muslims idol-worshippers? The Rabbis debate this. They debate this because, while dozens of important rabbis and most councils have ruled that Muslims are idol-worshippers, there is one Rabbi who singularly disagreed with them all: Maimonides.
And there is one more way for us to discern the importance of Maimonides. Chabad’s Daily Torah Study website includes only five sections of study. One of them is dedicated exclusively to Maimonides (Rambam). And if you happened to read this daily study on March 15th of this year — as tens of thousands of Jews likely had — you would read a Chabad-summarized lesson from Rambam:
It would be nice to believe that this is just one “nut”, or just one “nutty passage”, but it’s a bit more serious than that.
I’m not judging a collective of individuals here, but rather the lessons they receive as part of their religious indoctrination. The lessons of Orthodox Judaism are kind of antisocial, and this could carry over into other spheres of life. As an example from this week, Ben Shapiro was criticized for asking his viewers to donate to the infamous Kars4Kids charity over the years. This is an Orthodox Jewish charity that rakes in hundreds of millions in revenue under the pretense that a donated car goes to “kids”. In fact, the money mostly goes to Orthodox Jews, and a small amount goes to Orthodox Jewish kids. The donation page (code: Ben) doesn’t tell you this, only slime-ly tells you that it’s a Jewish charity. Ben Shapiro very likely knows this given how confroversial this charity is, but doesn’t care, just like he didn’t care when the orthodox schools in New York misappropriated 1 billion in educational funds (Shapiro called the NYTimes exposé “a war on Hasidic Jews”). Certainly in this case, there’s a lot of slimy evilness afoot.
The category of shituf in Jewish thought is more complex and contested than that.
That said, I think Amadan has the correct approach here. Let me ask a question, though I'm really just echoing him. Why should I believe that your cherry-picking of nasty-sounding passages from the Talmud is somehow more constitutive of modern Judaism, more accurate as a description of what actually-existing Jews are like, than what I learn from actually talking to Jews? Why is your interpretation of Jewish tradition more trustworthy than that of the rabbis that I have spoken to and who have explained their point of view to me?
I'm both a Christian and a veteran of the New Atheist flame wars of the 2000s, so I am extremely familiar with the genre of hostile outsiders cherry-picking nasty quotes and then condescending to explain my own tradition to me. This inclines me to sympathy when Jews (or for that matter Muslims, who are also frequently exposed to this) face malicious outsiders chucking a bunch of quotes at them, and wearily explain that, no, those quotes are not an accurate or proportional representation of either their faith or their way of life, and that if I'd like to know more about what they really do, I am welcome to come to synagogue or Torah study or other social events and learn more.
It is not so complex for Maimonides, although interestingly, he considered Islam purely monotheistic. There may be other rabbis who have said differently, but what matters is what is being taught as authoritative to the community, not what a less-significant or insignificant rabbi has published.
What is “modern Judaism”? Reform Jews have reformed the tradition. Conservative Jews might have never studied these works. I’ve specified that I am talking about Orthodox Jews, the ones who take the Talmud seriously. There is no “modernization” of Orthodox Judaism. If you believe that it has been modernized since the time of Maimonides, you should be able to find a statement from an important council of Rabbis to that effect, or a book that they consider to be more authoritative than Maimonides. In fact, the most important Rabbi of orthodoxy of our age, Schneerson, who some even believe to be the messiah (really), held up the work I quoted as required reading for all Jews. Did his work have a commentary attached, which described how these rules are no longer in effect? No.
One of the issues here is that Jews aren’t supposed to teach gentiles the Talmud. As, per Maimonides again, if they study the Talmud they deserve to die (Melachim uMilchamot - 10:9) by the hand of God. So the Orthodox are probably not going to share with you everything in their books. But as an experiment, you can write a convincing email to an orthodox authority about these questions, writing in Yiddish as if a yeshiva student, and then see what they reply with, as then they would reply honestly.
I doubt an Orthodox authority would tell you that you’re allowed to attend Torah study unless you are maternally Jewish.
Declaring Maimonides the only Jewish authority who counts is no less arbitrary than the rest of this cherry-picking. Maimonides is a very influential figure historically, yes, but this is the rough equivalent of pointing out that Thomas Aquinas is a Doctor of the Church and therefore declaring that the only thing you need to read to understand Catholicism is the Summa Theologiae. Much of what Maimonides taught was disputed even in his own time - for instance, his thirteen principles were immediately contested by other rabbis and do not enjoy consensus support today.
Moreover, to what extent are Maimonides' teachings even active, living forces in the lives of contemporary Jews? Even a very strict Orthodox Jew does not apply everything ever penned by Maimonides, no less than the most devout tradcath applies everything in Aquinas. Insofar as you are trying to make generalisations about Orthodox Jews today, I think it is necessary to look at what Orthodox Jews actually believe, and how Orthodox Jews actually behave.
Looking at actual behaviour is where I come to when it comes to study. Do Orthodox Jews actually try to prevent non-Jews from studying the Talmud? Really? That does not seem to actually be the case in practice, and I think it is telling that your case otherwise is conspiratorial - you assert that Orthodox Jews are just lying to people all the time. What's more likely? That the entire tradition is engaged in a universal deceit that you've seen through just by reading a book that your own argument would imply should be concealed from you? Or that you're talking nonsense?
Last of all, I am deeply skeptical of you drawing a distinction that excludes Conservative and Reform Jews here, for two reasons. Firstly, in my experience Conservative and to an extent Reform Jews absolutely study Torah, Talmud, and the entirety of their tradition. Secondly, I think that in actual practice yourself and the Motte's other anti-semites (pardon my language, but I do believe it's accurate) do not restrict your criticism of Jews to Orthodox Jews. I think Orthodox Jews are the motte, and you're probably going to go back to the bailey of opposing all Jews.
I never said that Maimonides was the only authority. I said that he is a foremost authority. Not everyone who has obtained the rabbinical title is an authority, or even has his works read in the community. It’s like how not every priest is an authority. But the Rambam (his affectionate title) is read widely and reverently throughout the whole Orthodox community. I have supplied evidence of this in my comments ITT: that when Maimonides conflicts with everyone else in the discussion of idolatry, the Israeli Orthodox student is likely to side with Maimonides; that Rav Schneerson told everyone to read his work; that the relevant quote is taught on the Chabad website. I will add, that in agreement with Maimonides on the question of whether Christians are Avodah Zarah (inexcusably idolatrous, to the effect that punishments may apply barring greater concerns) are the rulings of Joseph B. Soloveitchik (an authority in modern orthodoxy) and Moshe Feinstein (“called the most famous Orthodox Jewish legal authority of the 20th century […] served as president of the Union of Orthodox Rabbis”). If you want a more Motte-like way of ascertaining the ambient view of this issue among the Orthodox, you can search [ christians Avodah Zarah site:judaism.stackexchange.com ] and read the top threads, where the view of Maimonides will be pit or paired with other views.
It’s important to understand why this comparison doesn’t hold. To the Orthodox (I am not 100% certain what the others do), Maimonides is more like their gospel than their Thomas Aquinas. They often skip or minimize the study of the Tanakh (Old Testament) altogether to focus on the Talmud (which they call the Torah) and their primary entry to the Talmud is Maimonides. See 1 and 2. The Talmud isn’t some reference book laying dusty on the shelf, but actually the mainstay of study (and effectively, worship) for the Orthodox. You should peruse the introduction and the influence section of its Wikipedia entry, where you will read (among other things) that Adam Schiff made his congressional oath on a volume of the work I quoted from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishneh_Torah . The Summa is read in full by maybe .1% of Catholics, but the Mishneh Torah is probably read by a good 80% of Orthodox in full, and 100% who attend a yeshiva.
There’s a difference between actively seeking to prevent, and believing it is punished by death from God and discouraging it. Here’s an example of discouragement: https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/5181010/jewish/Non-Jews-and-Torah-Study.htm
Do you think they are the Parsis of India, or Druze or the Alawites? Are they a cult hosting the Eleusinian Mysteries? We’re talking about the most legalistic religion of all time. Their beliefs are neatly codified and redacted. You can just read them. There is literally no possible mechanism by which a former ruling can be abrogated except by a greater ruling, one by a greater expert or a more recent council, which would be put into writing and read in the yeshivas.
I’m just not familiar with what they do. So I’m abstaining from commenting. But reform has a very easy mechanism for disagreeing with Maimonides, which is the belief in conscience and a greater principle of goodwill. So there’s nothing to criticize wrt reform. I doubt they would agree with Rambam.
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Yes, I know who Maimonides is. I also know you're giving a hostile reading of what "Jews believe and are taught" that Jews would not agree with. Why should I take your word over a rabbi's? Is your premise (1) You actually know Jewish law better than Jews do or (2) Yeah, that's what they actually believe and they're lying to the goyim?
Your entire argument, from the hostile readings of selected Talmudic passages to Ben Shapiro's involvement in a shady charity, is nutpicking. Sure, there are slimy evil Jews. There are also slimy evil Christians, Muslims and atheists.
The passages I selected are mainstream, discussed openly by Orthodox Rabbis, hosted on the official Chabad website, and even part of Schneerson’s recommended reading for all Jews (he chosen the Mishneh Torah). So I don’t see how that is “nutpicking”. It seems like normative-picking. Same with Ben Shapiro; he is the most well known Orthodox Jew in America. If you think that the Talmud actually recommends compassion for Christians, then you are welcome to trace down a source in the Talmud which references compassion and love for idol-worshippers.
Mainstream Christians also discuss Biblical justifications for beating their kids or putting homosexuals to death.
You do a lot of ducking and weaving and selectively answering specific points for which you have a canned response and ignoring the rest, which is typical of all our irrational Jew-haters.
You are very intent on trying to convince me that some very narrow interpretations of selected texts are what "Jews" really believe despite the fact that very few Jews would agree with you. You'd actually be on firmer footing going after Muslims – most Westernized Muslims don't believe in the atrocious treatments recommended in some of their texts for unbelievers, but we know many Muslims from Muslim countries do. But your obsession is Jews.
Presumably you have met Jews who do in fact demonstrate compassion and love to Christians. Surely you have met non-evil, non-slimy Jews. Or maybe you haven't. Maybe every Jew you ever met tried to swindle you or stuff you in a locker, and you're a real-life victim of Chinese cardiologists. But I doubt this. So I will try again by asking you directly – is your thesis:
(A) Any Jew showing kindness to gentiles is a bad Jew who is not following his own religion correctly?
or
(B) Any Jew showing kindness to gentiles is just pretending, in order to deceive gentiles as to their true intentions?
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